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More Social Formality

To be honest, I doubt older right-wing white people like modern rock/metal. They're probably not buying [checks the Rock chart for 2021] Creeper, the same way people in their late thirties weren't buying Linkin Park but the ones who are now late thirties might. An arc for all multigenerational things seems to be "the new stuff SUCKS compared to the awesome old stuff!"

The end of "Monsieur/Herr" and the like is a thing that's happened, though I don't know if that's just about the end of formality. Using "monsieur" and "herr" emphasises these are foreigners, rather like the use of "premier" ended up being or Churchill's quote about the difference between u-boats and submarines.
 
All true. I think the thing is to reframe the question. In many ways, it's not the fact that there's less formality. There is, sure. The important thing, though, is that it's changed: so many systems of formality are about upholding class distinctions, traditional morality, orderly society and a feeling of comfort.

Traditional systems of formality in the Anglosphere were always going to erode, because by the early twentieth century they were increasingly unable to fulfil those purposes. There's plenty of formalities that have survived, as anyone who's ever learned how to present themselves for a job interview or attended a wine-and-cheese function knows.

But frock-coats and 'your most obedient servant' were not doomed by the World Wars but by the fact that both leftism and modern capitalism moved beyond the social needs of that kind of rigmarole. It's left to State Openings of Parliament now because it's part of a comforting story of who (we like to imagine) we were, and part of the reason that works is because we can be pleased we've moved beyond it.

You could preserve it longer with a sharp reactionary turn, perhaps. The Whites win in Russia, a few years later a British General Strike gets put down and we get Prime Minister Curzon and Home Secretary Joynson-Hicks and half the cabinet is from the Lords. There's no Great Depression and Hoover doesn't screw the pooch, so we get another term of a President who insists on wearing dinner jackets every evening and being announced by trumpet players.

But that's just holding back the tide.

A better bet would be to look at new formalities emerging after the first wave of the counterculture. Plenty of people in the Labour movement have no time for the 'anything goes' approach of young, well-to-do radicals. You can imagine a world where after a more successful few decades from 68' there's actually more emphasis on wearing suits and firm handshakes than today- because in a worker's democracy professionalism is one of the highest virtues. Just an idea. Nehru jackets and Mao suits are their own kind of social signifier.

A resurgence of formal meals is also doable. Plenty of precedent there, going back to the nineteenth century as well. But you need a society that doesn't incline towards atomisation.

That's another thing we haven't talked about: as the slightly obnoxious book has it, people are 'Bowling Alone' now. Unless you can keep up membership in church groups, unions, sports clubs, beneficent societies, hobby groups and PTAs, people simply aren't meeting enough in structured enough ways to actually necessitate a lot of these formalities.
 
But frock-coats and 'your most obedient servant' were not doomed by the World Wars but by the fact that both leftism and modern capitalism moved beyond the social needs of that kind of rigmarole. It's left to State Openings of Parliament now because it's part of a comforting story of who (we like to imagine) we were, and part of the reason that works is because we can be pleased we've moved beyond it.
This reminds me of a certain episode where I was appearing in Justice Court (essentially magistrate's court for our cousins across the Atlantic). I'd been taught in law school to stand when the judge entered the courtroom. When His Honor entered the court, I stood up and buttoned my suit jacket as I was supposed to, only for the Court to say "that will do Counselor, you didn't need to go to that ceremony."

Though in fairness I wanted to appear deferential and respectful in part because judges often tend to be small-c conservative, and whereas I'm sure myself, the opposing party and opposing counsel were petite-bourgeois (the judge, being a JP, by definition would be plain bourgeoisie) my client looked and certainly spoke like at best the upper rungs of the working classes.

Also excessive formalities in legal writing in America have been discouraged in the past two decades, in part due to Scalia's hatred of them and his influence on the American legal profession.
 
You might like this documentary on British blues pioneer Long John Baldry, which goes into the blues cutting through to white British youths in the 50s and 60s. There, you can see photos and clips of youths clearly having a raucous time ("and I dare say a sexuality that was inescapable" quoth a writer in it).

Thanks! I'll need to watch this at some point.

SpanishSpy's post made me think of that entry from Stuff White People Like, "Black Music Black People Don't Listen To Anymore" (though that also extended it to a white middle-class fetishisation of 1980s/early 1990s hip-hop of which I myself was once guilty). Also of the way a lot of Right-wing white people (the people born and brought up here passively racist, the white flighters, especially from the Brexit heartland of the West Midlands, actively so) in my part of England think of rock music as if it were indigenous - in a way people here would once have reserved for Hardy and Barnes or, in musical terms, the Yetties - and see it as the native culture they voted Leave to maintain, even to the point of thinking their children and grandchildren are offending against its principles by listening to contemporary Black pop, when of course if it hadn't been for a cross-fertilisation between poor rural whites and Black people, and the former recognising that they had more in common with the latter than they did with the Eisenhower WASP elite as small-town and rural kids listening to Tion Wayne & Russ Millions' "Body" recognise that they have more in common with those artists than they do with the Cameronite-Johnsonian Rock Right establishment, rock would never have existed at all and whatever would be the ruling culture in Britain today would be wholly different.

I just read this and found it to be hilarious and true in my experience.

All true. I think the thing is to reframe the question. In many ways, it's not the fact that there's less formality. There is, sure. The important thing, though, is that it's changed: so many systems of formality are about upholding class distinctions, traditional morality, orderly society and a feeling of comfort.

Traditional systems of formality in the Anglosphere were always going to erode, because by the early twentieth century they were increasingly unable to fulfil those purposes. There's plenty of formalities that have survived, as anyone who's ever learned how to present themselves for a job interview or attended a wine-and-cheese function knows.

But frock-coats and 'your most obedient servant' were not doomed by the World Wars but by the fact that both leftism and modern capitalism moved beyond the social needs of that kind of rigmarole. It's left to State Openings of Parliament now because it's part of a comforting story of who (we like to imagine) we were, and part of the reason that works is because we can be pleased we've moved beyond it.

You could preserve it longer with a sharp reactionary turn, perhaps. The Whites win in Russia, a few years later a British General Strike gets put down and we get Prime Minister Curzon and Home Secretary Joynson-Hicks and half the cabinet is from the Lords. There's no Great Depression and Hoover doesn't screw the pooch, so we get another term of a President who insists on wearing dinner jackets every evening and being announced by trumpet players.

But that's just holding back the tide.

A better bet would be to look at new formalities emerging after the first wave of the counterculture. Plenty of people in the Labour movement have no time for the 'anything goes' approach of young, well-to-do radicals. You can imagine a world where after a more successful few decades from 68' there's actually more emphasis on wearing suits and firm handshakes than today- because in a worker's democracy professionalism is one of the highest virtues. Just an idea. Nehru jackets and Mao suits are their own kind of social signifier.

A resurgence of formal meals is also doable. Plenty of precedent there, going back to the nineteenth century as well. But you need a society that doesn't incline towards atomisation.

That's another thing we haven't talked about: as the slightly obnoxious book has it, people are 'Bowling Alone' now. Unless you can keep up membership in church groups, unions, sports clubs, beneficent societies, hobby groups and PTAs, people simply aren't meeting enough in structured enough ways to actually necessitate a lot of these formalities.

This got me thinking - in certain contexts and in certain places, people today most certainly have a fetishization of old-school formality, oftentimes stripped of its original context.

I'm a lifelong resident of the Commonwealth of Virginia. For most of that time, I've lived in Arlington, a suburb of Washington, D.C. that doesn't feel particularly 'Southern;' I'd often joke that, before the offending object was removed, that the South truly began at the gigantic Confederate flag visible from I-95 in Stafford county near Fredericksburg (about a forty-five minute drive south of where I live).

South of that flagpole, people still very much use a formality in certain contexts that is absent in the Northeast or out West. People still use 'sir' and 'ma'am,' those old stereotypical Southern words that many people mock the region for.

North of that flagpole and south of the Potomac (which defines the Maryland/DC border), they mock the 'yokels' in the Appalachians or Southside or the Tidewater for their old-fashionedness. However, there is a variant of that old formality, albeit a somewhat updated one. Men are still 'sir,' but women are 'miss,' not 'ma'am;' I grew up calling my teachers those titles. As much as some of us would like to deny it, Northern Virginia is still Virginia; this is bolstered by the formality of the military, which has a huge presence around here.

And in another context:

In these social dance circles I regularly circulate in, there very much is a fetishization of old-school ball formality. For many people, these are opportunities to dress nicely and to bow and curtsy, often to music of the 1920s to the 1950s (which itself forms a strange potpourri of musical styles that would never be played together when they were the popular genres - at these dances you can expect to hear Delta blues, Glenn Miller-style swing, and fifties rock 'n' roll within minutes of each other). I went to one such event at a 1920s mansion last Friday, and that was very much the appeal, for myself as well as for others.

It's a formality that does not always respect the norms of the old ballrooms. There are no dance cards (when I first heard of these as a new ballroomer, my first reaction was 'that's barbaric'), for one, and men and women can dance both roles. The 1920s ballroom I dance in when there is no plague is now racially integrated (as a Filipino-American, I wouldn't have been let in until the sixties), and it has a display about desegregation there. Some people wear hats on the floor - this was not the case eighty to ninety years ago.

It's the pursuit of that formality that I think leads to this denial of the sexuality that has historically been in these dances. I'm currently reading a book on sexuality in American music and it makes the point, which I have seen elsewhere, that to the black people who created blues and swing and other such music and dance, open expression of sexuality was a liberating thing; it was an affirmation that they were, in fact, full human beings. The book further argues that white people interpreted this expression as mere lust and not as that self-affirmation.

I've seen this personally - there very much are people at blues dances who take that element to an inappropriate extreme. It has led to blues dance being slandered as 'the horny dance' and its dancers insulted for that reason.

This tendency to reduce such a history to mere lustfulness, I am tentatively willing to say (I need to finish the book), is what created the modern hellscape of pop music, sexualized for no reason more than shock value or lining an executive's pockets. If this is the case, I will make a bold statement: that something that originally empowered the enslaved and the oppressed has been turned into the vicious machine of exploitation that is the modern music industry is a tragedy of the highest order.

(sorry - that was another tangent)
 
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Thought - people in London saying "thank you" to the bus driver. Is that formality? In the interests of politeness and etiquette, we're acknowledging someone and their work.

It's not just London, but I think it is a form of social formality.

I just read this and found it to be hilarious and true in my experience.

I mean on the one hand it's more fuel to my fire of 'classical music is basically absorbing Jazz'.

And on the other it sort of comes across as 'why are you white people still talking about this black music genre, we've stopped caring about it because it's old fashioned' and like a logical response is 'what's actually wrong with it?'

I mean maybe it's just the fact that I've grown up listening to a melange of the music of the 1750s to the 1980s, but the idea that you should be obsessively celebrating only the New Hip Thing is just so alien to me that it seems unreal.

Or as I could put it, 'I get what you're saying, but I just think Samuel Coleridge-Taylor is better than Stormzy'
 
This reminds me of a certain episode where I was appearing in Justice Court (essentially magistrate's court for our cousins across the Atlantic). I'd been taught in law school to stand when the judge entered the courtroom. When His Honor entered the court, I stood up and buttoned my suit jacket as I was supposed to, only for the Court to say "that will do Counselor, you didn't need to go to that ceremony."

Though in fairness I wanted to appear deferential and respectful in part because judges often tend to be small-c conservative, and whereas I'm sure myself, the opposing party and opposing counsel were petite-bourgeois (the judge, being a JP, by definition would be plain bourgeoisie) my client looked and certainly spoke like at best the upper rungs of the working classes.

Also excessive formalities in legal writing in America have been discouraged in the past two decades, in part due to Scalia's hatred of them and his influence on the American legal profession.

I mean there's a reason every lawyer who has to worry about court keeps a suit in the closet.

BTW, there was an interesting thread/series therof about how you dress to meet clients (especially if you're a PD) a while back on twitter, although I can't find most of it. It seems like the general rule articulated was "it depends on if the bigger issue is giving the client reassurance that their issues will be handled by a Serious Good Professional lawyer or if talking to someone who is clearly overdressed is going to make them feel uncomfortable."
 
Thought - people in London saying "thank you" to the bus driver. Is that formality? In the interests of politeness and etiquette, we're acknowledging someone and their work.

I would say "thank you" is, if anything, a sign of informality. You do not thank your betters, you do not thank your inferiors, you thank an equal.

That actually gets somewhat to the root of the problem with this WI- I don't know that we are all addressing the same thing when we discuss formality (I didn't really connect the above section on dancing, as one example, as having much of anything to do with formality in my conception of it).
 
I tried something like this back in His Majesty's Dictator. The Great War ends in 1916 and Britain effectively comes under an unostentatious military dictatorship. Without a sustained war, the army that died was largely the professional pre-war one and there was no conscription widening the intake across society. Added to that, there was a sense that Britain had been defeated because it had become too lax. The widespread industrial action which happened for real in 1910/11 was seen as a symptom of societal decline. Thus, when the book is set in 1948, British culture is like an extended Edwardian era. Legislation has meant that Churchill's plans for sterilising habitual criminals has been introduced and as in (Northern) Ireland, the mainland has armed police. For modern readers 1948 would seem socially repressed anyway, but if you know your 20th Century history, you are alert to the social changes that the two world wars, largely absent in my book brought, especially in terms of the role of women in society.

A sense that loose morals, 'too much democracy' and the modernisation of society was at the root of decline, as we see under the Vichy French regime of the 1940s, could have led to pressure to reinforce attitudes and behaviour which had been more prevalent in the 1880s than 50-60 years later in our history. Of course, every society has a counter-culture, but in a time when output could much more easily be restricted through censorship then if the regime chose, it could have enforced different behaviours, perhaps on pain of a penalty. We can draw in modern examples such as Singapore and China to show that even in the internet age it is possible for regimes to achieve this, let alone at a time when mass culture was restricted to newspapers, books, radio and cinema. We can also see the linking of political subversion to cultural subversion, so the suppressing of both in conjunction, in Nazi Germany, Soviet Union and, for example, under ISIS and the Taliban.
 
I mean on the one hand it's more fuel to my fire of 'classical music is basically absorbing Jazz'.

And on the other it sort of comes across as 'why are you white people still talking about this black music genre, we've stopped caring about it because it's old fashioned' and like a logical response is 'what's actually wrong with it?'

I mean maybe it's just the fact that I've grown up listening to a melange of the music of the 1750s to the 1980s, but the idea that you should be obsessively celebrating only the New Hip Thing is just so alien to me that it seems unreal.

Or as I could put it, 'I get what you're saying, but I just think Samuel Coleridge-Taylor is better than Stormzy'

As someone who has spent a lot of time around people like in the article, the joke to me is that they believe that they're the continuation of a 'pure' and 'authentic' tradition of a black musical genre when the reality is that the experience is heavily filtered through a white middle-class lens.
 
As someone who has spent a lot of time around people like in the article, the joke to me is that they believe that they're the continuation of a 'pure' and 'authentic' tradition of a black musical genre when the reality is that the experience is heavily filtered through a white middle-class lens.

Yeah that I can get.

There's interesting parallels actually to the 1970s/80s origin of Historically Informed Performance Practice- which at the time was usually referred to as either Early Music or even just 'Authentic Music'. The basic concept is 'we're playing on reproduction instruments and using the techniques of 18th century playing, so this is how Bach was meant to sound' but it really has far more to do with folks wanting to signify a break with the then dominant performance practices.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but DoD has the not altogether uncommon AH trope of a more internationally prominent *Australia, although DoD may be the ur-example. How do you think social formality plays out there?
DoD Australian culture isn't much like the real-world Australia, due to an earlier influx of free migrants (early Gold Rush) and some rather different circumstances later. In terms of social formality, that would have lingered longer in parts of the country - most notably *Victoria, which had its own colonial aristocracy set up due to different circumstances - but by the present day of the timeline, formality would still largely be gone. Though as @SenatorChickpea notes, hats may still be a possibility.
 
As someone who has spent a lot of time around people like in the article, the joke to me is that they believe that they're the continuation of a 'pure' and 'authentic' tradition of a black musical genre when the reality is that the experience is heavily filtered through a white middle-class lens.
I think to some degree part of it may be something like with swing-dancing as I know it, that the two demographics in America that like it are Christian conservative homseschoolers, and for lack a better term, the hard left seen on college campuses. Swing dancing and blues, despite the rather obvious subtext, for some reason is seen by the former as a sexless genre of dance and music (or at least that's what the kids tell their parents, I know better)
 
I think to some degree part of it may be something like with swing-dancing as I know it, that the two demographics in America that like it are Christian conservative homseschoolers, and for lack a better term, the hard left seen on college campuses. Swing dancing and blues, despite the rather obvious subtext, for some reason is seen by the former as a sexless genre of dance and music (or at least that's what the kids tell their parents, I know better)
There certainly are more conservative groups who teach swing as some sort of 'wholesome' dance - and, in fairness, it isn't nearly as raunchy as blues can be. Swing is a very bouncy dance and having the partners close enough to enable anything salacious simply doesn't work.

When I was college, the students who did it were mostly white (not entirely - I'm half Filipino) and tended liberal but not frothing-at-the-mouth socialist.

Outside of colleges and conservative groups, they're mostly middle-class white people, average age somewhere in the thirties, who wanted something new and exciting, likewise tending moderately liberal. These people, more than the college students, are the ones who dance blues in an extremely horny manner but deny any presence of sexuality when asked about it.

All of this is ironic in light of how I recently learned that a dance that influenced Lindy Hop (and in all likelihood blues too) is literally a dramatization of a spat between a prostitute and her pimp.
 
I will say you do see some deferential gestures even in America that survive among people in the trades. It always feels a bit unconfortable when the plumber or mechanic calls you "boss", though objectively it probably makes sense - it's obvious from the car I drive I'm middle class.
See that's odd because in the UK context you can call a friend boss, or your actual boss boss or someone who outranks you or for whatever reason has some sway but you don't want to make things awkward by calling them sir, maam, mr or what have you. Indeed some places have tried to stamp out the word especially in work emails and the like because its too informal and unprofessional.


So the idea that someone calling you boss is a sign of excessive formality strikes me as downright strange as its basically the most informal form of deference one can use professionally. I believe 'Guv' fills a similar role but I've never heard that used outside of television.
 
See that's odd because in the UK context you can call a friend boss, or your actual boss boss or someone who outranks you or for whatever reason has some sway but you don't want to make things awkward by calling them sir, maam, mr or what have you. Indeed some places have tried to stamp out the word especially in work emails and the like because its too informal and unprofessional.


So the idea that someone calling you boss is a sign of excessive formality strikes me as downright strange as its basically the most informal form of deference one can use professionally. I believe 'Guv' fills a similar role but I've never heard that used outside of television.
It isn't as formal as Sir, but IME you don't call random people boss, either.
 
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