Living the Twenties: P,Q,R

[Gary Oswald]

Discuss this article here

 

[Stateless]

QPR spent the 1920s in the Third Division, having been members at its creation in 1920. Their best finish was 3rd in the inaugural season, while in 1923-24 and 1925-26 they finished 22nd and bottom and had to survive reelection to the Football League (though actually it never came to a vote as there were no non-league clubs looking to seek election.

 

[David Flin]

This sentiment escalated during WWI. The Ottoman Empire allied itself with Germany, but many Armenian communities who lived close to the Russian Empire chose to side with them. It was treason for the Ottoman Empire that ordered Armenians arrested or deported.

Um, Ottoman atrocities against the Armenians (and Greeks) were recorded in 1913, resulting from the First Balkan War. This was despite Ottoman Armenians having fought for the Ottoman Empire in the First Balkan War. The Armenians were blamed by the Ottoman Empire for its defeat in the war.

In mid-1914 (prior to events in Sarajevo kicking off WW1), Enver Pasha described the Armenians as a "tumour that needs to be excised", and the genocide started.

The later claims of treason by the Ottoman Empire as a reason for starting the genocide was post-facto excuse-making and a complete nonsense. The genocide was well underway by the time the lights started going out all over Europe.

 

[Redolegna]

They were so rife and so widely condemned, even before then, with one set of massacres occuring in the mid 1890s, that there are political cartoons of Sultan Abdul Hamid II and King Leopold II cheerfully discussing how those pesky humanitarian concerns never come to anything.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

The genocide excusal is repulsive, and it's also worth noting that variations of it have been used to justify ethnic cleansing before and after; I would like to think that the blog won't excuse the concentration camps in South Africa by noting that many rural Afrikaners sided with Britain's enemies and thus it was understandable to cram them into typhus-ridden hellholes. Variations on the 'treacherous minority' line have been run in the Balkans, Africa, Asia, and of course are found earlier in the rhetoric that justifies the slaughter of indigenous peoples in Australasia and the Americas.

 

[Gary Oswald]

The genocide excusal is repulsive, and it's also worth noting that variations of it have been used to justify ethnic cleansing before and after; I would like to think that the blog won't excuse the concentration camps in South Africa by noting that many rural Afrikaners sided with Britain's enemies and thus it was understandable to cram them into typhus-ridden hellholes. Variations on the 'treacherous minority' line have been run in the Balkans, Africa, Asia, and of course are found earlier in the rhetoric that justifies the slaughter of indigenous peoples in Australasia and the Americas.

No, but I would mention that the Boer War was happening, when we talk about it. If you are talking about the Armenian Genocide, I don't think you can do that without mentioning the radicalisation effect of the First World War and the Armenians who did fight with the Russians. But you have to be careful not to overstate that and to mention the other factors and ultimately we weren't careful enough here.

Ultimately this article has obviously said things I didn't intend it to and that is on both me and on Sarah and I'm considering whether it's worth deleting this series entirely given the overwhelmingly negative feedback. I didn't want to do that because I'd promised Sarah to republish the entire series but nor do I want to host inaccurate articles that can be perceived as genocide apologia.

I don't think that perception is the intent of that bit, I think it's more a problem with trying to talk about a weighty issue in a) very few words and b) in a foreign language that has meant it's come across as excusal.

Again that's on me, I should have asked Sarah to either leave that bit out or to vastly extend it so that the topic can be dealt with in a way it deserves. And I apologise for not taking better care on this.

@Thande is yet to share this on social media so give me a little while to think about whether I should delete the article or leave it up with that bit removed.

 

[Gary Oswald]

I've removed the Armenian Genocide bit from the article and I apologise for not doing so prior to it going up. I think at the moment, the rest of the article will not be deleted and I still plan to post the last 3 articles in this series (given the commitment we made and that it's only another 3 pieces), but I am happy to take feedback from here if you'd prefer for that not to happen.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

I still plan to post the last 3 articles in this series (given the commitment we made and that it's only another 3 pieces), but I am happy to take feedback from here if you'd prefer for that not to happen.

No, I certainly wouldn't want to stop the series going forward. I think a lot of Sarah's articles have been valuable.

Yes, I've taken issue with some of this last series, but it's important to distinguish problems that come from over-generalising from a middle class perspective and this last one, where for whatever reason there was a lack of judgement.

I don't think there is anything like a pattern of genocide apologism here, so I think you've taken the appropriate action. Now let's forge ahead.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

I also want to note that the article is much, much stronger now that the sections on prohibition and queer history are not overshadowed.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Um, Ottoman atrocities against the Armenians (and Greeks) were recorded in 1913, resulting from the First Balkan War. This was despite Ottoman Armenians having fought for the Ottoman Empire in the First Balkan War. The Armenians were blamed by the Ottoman Empire for its defeat in the war.

In mid-1914 (prior to events in Sarajevo kicking off WW1), Enver Pasha described the Armenians as a "tumour that needs to be excised", and the genocide started.

The later claims of treason by the Ottoman Empire as a reason for starting the genocide was post-facto excuse-making and a complete nonsense. The genocide was well underway by the time the lights started going out all over Europe.

One of the causes for the Armenian Genocide appears to have been paronoia among Turks following the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in the Balkans, though.

 

[David Flin]

One of the causes for the Armenian Genocide appears to have been paronoia among Turks following the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in the Balkans, though.

That element of the article has been removed, so further discussion of it is probably not a productive use of time.

 

[Ricardolindo]

That element of the article has been removed, so further discussion of it is probably not a productive use of time.

Yes, you are right, sorry.

 

[David Flin]

No worries. Possibly a worthwhile discussion for another time and/or place.

 

[TruthOfAngels]

QPR spent the 1920s in the Third Division, having been members at its creation in 1920. Their best finish was 3rd in the inaugural season, while in 1923-24 and 1925-26 they finished 22nd and bottom and had to survive reelection to the Football League (though actually it never came to a vote as there were no non-league clubs looking to seek election.

I miss QPR in the top flight. Best football acronym ever, much like my own beloved Gunners have the best nickname. Oh yes.

ETA: And the 1920s also included Arsenal losing in the 1927 FA Cup Final to Cardiff City, the only time the big-eared cup has ever left England. And our keeper was Welsh, too. Which was probably awkward for him.