Jewish Egypt

[Ricardolindo]

Inspired on https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-jewish-egypt.405066/: How could we have a Jewish Egypt? The Egyptians were circumcised and didn't eat much pork. The main obstacle appears to be the history of the Exodus.

 

[SenatorChickpea]

I mean… even taking the Exodus as a historical event, no small assumption, I feel that there’s… one or two more stops along the road to a Jewish Egypt.

Also, while I think I get what you’re trying to say, ‘they like circumcision and don’t like bacon, they’d make good Jews’ is reductive, to say the least.

 

[Ricardolindo]

I mean… even taking the Exodus as a historical event, no small assumption, I feel that there’s… one or two more stops along the road to a Jewish Egypt.

Also, while I think I get what you’re trying to say, ‘they like circumcision and don’t like bacon, they’d make good Jews’l is reductive, to say the least.

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean I considered the Exodus historical. I should have said story insead of history. I meant the story of the Exodus could drive away Egyptians from converting to Judaism as it portrays the Jews/Hebrews defeating the Egyptians who enslaved them.
Anyways, Egypt had a large Jewish community in Classical Antiquity.

 

[Jackson Lennock]

Also, while I think I get what you’re trying to say, ‘they like circumcision and don’t like bacon, they’d make good Jews’ is reductive, to say the least.

While overly simplistic, lifestyle things like that do present a hurdle. Russia might have converted to Islam, if not for the bar of alcohol and pork (a necessary source of protein).

******************

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean I considered the Exodus historical. I should have said story insead of history. I meant the story of the Exodus could drive away Egyptians from converting to Judaism as it portrays the Jews/Hebrews defeating the Egyptians who enslaved them.
Anyways, Egypt had a large Jewish community in Classical Antiquity.

The Romans seem like the bad guys in the story of Jesus, and yet they converted to Christianity. A Jewish Egypt isn't much crazier.

The easiest way to get a Jewish Egypt probably would be by conquest. Maybe Himyar successfully builds an empire or Zenobia's Palmyrene Empire (which tolerated Christians and Jews) embraces Judaism.

 

[Walpurgisnacht]

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean I considered the Exodus historical. I should have said story insead of history. I meant the story of the Exodus could drive away Egyptians from converting to Judaism as it portrays the Jews/Hebrews defeating the Egyptians who enslaved them.

...Judaism doesn't really do mass conversion, though. Christianity and Islam are the only two religions that really do that.

 

[Jackson Lennock]

Dhu Nuwas, the Jewish king of Himyar in the sixth century, sent emissaries to the Sassanids to form an alliance against East Rome/Byzantium. They arrived at a pretty bad time though - the East Romans had a peace mission in town. The Sassanids handed the Himyarites over to the Byzantines, and the Byzantines encouraged the Axumites to go after Himyar. The distrust of the Romans had been a thing for a while - in the fourth century, himyar march up to Medina to keep the Romans out of South Arabia (and it seems that it was that expedition that resulted in the King's conversion).



Have Himyar absorb Hijaz and vassalize (and convert?) Kindah over the 6th century. When the TTL version of the Revolt against Heraclius happens, the Himyarites swoop in, seize Judea/Palestine, and march on Egypt?

 

[Ricardolindo]

While overly simplistic, lifestyle things like that do present a hurdle. Russia might have converted to Islam, if not for the bar of alcohol and pork (a necessary source of protein).

Not to deviate from the subject of the thread, but
the story thar Vladimir of Kiev didn't convert to Islam because of alchol and pork story is fable. The alcohol taboo was widely disregarded in the pre-modern Islamic world. The pork taboo is more problematic but pork was the major protein source in pre-Islamic Indonesia and a study last year showed Muslims in Sicily ate pork. (I read about it in this article https://m.jpost.com/archaeology/ham-fisted-haram-medieval-islamic-sicily-ate-pork-study-finds-672374 You need to pay to read the full study at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352409X21005113.)
The early Berbers are also believed to have disregarded the pork taboo.
The actual problem is that the Rus had far more trade with the Byzantine Empire than with the Islamic world.

 

[Ricardolindo]

...Judaism doesn't really do mass conversion, though. Christianity and Islam are the only two religions that really do that.

There is an incredibly hot debate among historians as to whether Jews in Classical Antiquity sought converts and, if so, to what extent. Note Himyar converted to Judaism.

 

[Charles EP M.]

Since a Jewish Egypt would have to be done by conquest, do you have Jewish Egypt or does this question become "what if Himyarites founded a new Jewish-ruled kingdom that includes a lot of what of Egyptian land"? (For a start that makes the Egyptians a 'fallen ancient civilisation' ala the Romans or Aztecs rather than an old one and you can visit the country now)

 

[Jackson Lennock]

Since a Jewish Egypt would have to be done by conquest, do you have Jewish Egypt or does this question become "what if Himyarites founded a new Jewish-ruled kingdom that includes a lot of what of Egyptian land"? (For a start that makes the Egyptians a 'fallen ancient civilisation' ala the Romans or Aztecs rather than an old one and you can visit the country now)

Now we're getting into the age old question of Who is a Jew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew?

Given Judaism's uniqueness with respect to how it's as much a sort of national or ethnic identity (conversion being akin to passing a citizenship test, I guess) as it is a religion, Egypt adopting Judaism probably would mean the people don't identify as Egyptian anymore ... unless there's some sort of theological schism.