Is a Fascist Russia likely to be an expansionist power or a status quo power?

[Arthur_Phuxache]

Please elaborate.

Hungary, Romania, the Baltics, and Slovakia = #GoodSlavs

Poland, Ukraine, Russia = untermenschen and enemies of Weltherrschaft

 

[CaliGuy]

Hungary, Romania, the Baltics, and Slovakia = #GoodSlavs

Poland, Ukraine, Russia = untermenschen and enemies of Weltherrschaft

But here we're going to have a Fascist Russia rather than a Communist Russia. Also, Poland was initially in the "Good Slav" category.

 

[Arthur_Phuxache]

Also, Poland was initially in the "Good Slav" category.

Yeah, and look what happened to them.

Any German fascist movement that arises alongside a fascist Russia is going to have racial hygiene as its USP - Germans as the master race, not Russians.

 

[Alex Richards]

I mean this assumption that 'Fascist Germany=Hitler' seems a bit off in and of itself.

Could easily be something more like the military couping the 'decadent republic' for example.

 

[Catalunya]

I cannot see Hitler coming to power if there is no Bolshevik Russia tbh.

 

[CaliGuy]

Yeah, and look what happened to them.

That was after they rejected Hitler's overtures, though--which of course, as a sovereign state, they had every right to do.

Any German fascist movement that arises alongside a fascist Russia is going to have racial hygiene as its USP - Germans as the master race, not Russians.

If the Japanese can be Honorary Aryans, though, why not Russians?

I mean this assumption that 'Fascist Germany=Hitler' seems a bit off in and of itself.

Could easily be something more like the military couping the 'decadent republic' for example.

You mean with someone such as Kurt von Schleicher?

I cannot see Hitler coming to power if there is no Bolshevik Russia tbh.

What about if there is a Bolshevik Revolution in Russia but the Whites subsequently win the Russian Civil War?

 

[TheIO]

Hungary, Romania, the Baltics, and Slovakia = #GoodSlavs

Poland, Ukraine, Russia = untermenschen and enemies of Weltherrschaft

Hungary and Romania and the Baltics aren't Slavic.

Slovakia and Croatia are but in both cases you could've also seen "just let Hungary have those back" as an option - the former I think was only an option in Hearts of Iron but the latter was Hitler's original idea before Hungary said no.

 

[Makemakean]

I remain somewhat sceptical as to whether it is appropriate to label Imperial Japan fascist. Not because I wish to imply that Imperial Japan was somehow "less bad" than Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy, of course, but due to organization, ideology, and the people in government. And above all, there were fascist movements in Japan in the 20s and 30s that can well be deemed to have been the direct analogues of the ones in Italy and Germany, only they never had their March to Rome or Reichstag Fire or the like, and never reached power. The people who did the administration were basically the same ones who had handled administration since, well, since the Meiji Revolution.

 

[CaliGuy]

Hungary and Romania and the Baltics aren't Slavic.

Slovakia and Croatia are but in both cases you could've also seen "just let Hungary have those back" as an option - the former I think was only an option in Hearts of Iron but the latter was Hitler's original idea before Hungary said no.

Horthy didn't want Croatia?

I remain somewhat sceptical as to whether it is appropriate to label Imperial Japan fascist. Not because I wish to imply that Imperial Japan was somehow "less bad" than Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy, of course, but due to organization, ideology, and the people in government. And above all, there were fascist movements in Japan in the 20s and 30s that can well be deemed to have been the direct analogues of the ones in Italy and Germany, only they never had their March to Rome or Reichstag Fire or the like, and never reached power. The people who did the administration were basically the same ones who had handled administration since, well, since the Meiji Revolution.

Post-1930 Japan was significantly more militaristic and aggressive than pre-1930 Japan was, though.

 

[Makemakean]

Post-1930 Japan was significantly more militaristic and aggressive than pre-1930 Japan was, though.

It was far more gradual than what one saw in Italy and Germany and had been happening for a longer period of time. The seeds for increased military influence in the government had been steadily advancing since the Meiji Constitution (which gave the military effectively the power to no-confidence vote the government); Japan started getting involved in China more or less the moment the Qing dynasty fell with all kinds of skullduggery, and I they had been pretty militaristic against China already before that: the Treaty of Shimonoseki was signed in 1895, annexing Taiwan to Japan. And that's not even mentioning the annexation of Korea in 1910 and the Russo-Japanese War.

 

[napoleon IV]

Going back to the original question I think it would be an expansionist power. As @d32123 says, it's main goals at first are going to be regaining territory that it previously lost. After that I think their focus is going to be on the Balkans. Russian nationalists had long held dreams of conquering Constantinople and the Straits, which would not only give Russia unrestricted access to the Mediterranean but also allow it to fulfill its duties as the Third Rome. Domination of the Balkans also allows Russia to act as the "big brother" of Slavs in the region, which will be appealing to a fascist movement that I think would have a strong Slavophilic tendency. Finally, I agree with what others are saying about Russia wanting to gain more control in East Asia, which would put it on the path to conflict with Japan.

 

[Arthur_Phuxache]

Hungary and Romania and the Baltics aren't Slavic.

That's a linguistic distinction, not an ethnic nor racial(ist) one.

 

[Gary Oswald]

That's a linguistic distinction, not an ethnic nor racial(ist) one.

Yeah but nazi race science was an ad-hoc ablibbed bunch of nonsense designed to support the goals the regime already had. There's no logic to it.

 

[Arthur_Phuxache]

Yeah but nazi race science was an ad-hoc adlibbed bunch of nonsense designed to support the goals the regime already had. There's no logic to it.

A fascist Russia (and a fascist Germany where there is a fascist Russia) will have equally unpredictable racial doctrines.

 

[CaliGuy]

It was far more gradual than what one saw in Italy and Germany and had been happening for a longer period of time. The seeds for increased military influence in the government had been steadily advancing since the Meiji Constitution (which gave the military effectively the power to no-confidence vote the government); Japan started getting involved in China more or less the moment the Qing dynasty fell with all kinds of skullduggery, and I they had been pretty militaristic against China already before that: the Treaty of Shimonoseki was signed in 1895, annexing Taiwan to Japan. And that's not even mentioning the annexation of Korea in 1910 and the Russo-Japanese War.

Which Chinese warlords did Japan support before 1931?

Going back to the original question I think it would be an expansionist power. As @d32123 says, it's main goals at first are going to be regaining territory that it previously lost.

Including western Poland and Finland or are they going to leave those specific territories alone?

After that I think their focus is going to be on the Balkans. Russian nationalists had long held dreams of conquering Constantinople and the Straits, which would not only give Russia unrestricted access to the Mediterranean but also allow it to fulfill its duties as the Third Rome. Domination of the Balkans also allows Russia to act as the "big brother" of Slavs in the region, which will be appealing to a fascist movement that I think would have a strong Slavophilic tendency.

A possible problem with such a course of action is that Turkey is more ethnically homogeneous than it was before the start of the war. As a result of the genocide and ethnic cleansing of its Armenian population, there would now be extremely few of them actually left in eastern Anatolia. Ditto for the Pontic Greeks. The Kurds would still be there, but would a Fascist Russia actually be particularly eager to use the Muslim Kurds as a casus belli--especially considering that Russia itself doesn't actually have a large Kurdish population?

Finally, I agree with what others are saying about Russia wanting to gain more control in East Asia, which would put it on the path to conflict with Japan.

Would Russia also aim for Mongolia and/or Xinjiang in any future war with Japan?

 

[CaliGuy]

That's a linguistic distinction, not an ethnic nor racial(ist) one.

Yep.

Yeah but nazi race science was an ad-hoc ablibbed bunch of nonsense designed to support the goals the regime already had. There's no logic to it.

Yep.

A fascist Russia (and a fascist Germany where there is a fascist Russia) will have equally unpredictable racial doctrines.

Makes one wonder if, due to Russia's greater ethnic diversity, Russian Fascism is going to be more of a "big-tent movement" than German Nazism was. Thoughts?

 

[Makemakean]

Which Chinese warlords did Japan support before 1931?

Duan Qirui and the Anhui clique.

The Japanese government blatantly bribed him so that he wouldn't kick up a fuss over Japan taking over Shandong from the Germans in the aftermath of World War I (even though Duan Qirui was nominally the Premier of China, the farcical and fragmented nature of Chinese governance in the wake of Yuan Shikai meant that senior cabinet ministers were uninformed of the so-called Nishihara Loans, greatly embarrassing the Chinese envoy to Versailles, Wellington Koo). The Anhui clique furthermore in 1918, as thanks for the yens Japan was sending them, granted not just Japan the right to station troops in the formerly German concessions, but outright gave the Japanese the right to station troops in Manchuria, ostensibly to help defend against the Bolsheviks in Russia.

 

[Milo]

An interesting point I heard on a recent BBC History Podcast was that talk of population and lebensraum was linked to German migration to America and many on the far right (even Hitler) wanted these ethnic Germans to return back to the Fatherland and that to get these Germans back they needed land for them as tempting offer. Maybe this alt-Germany will focus more on getting these former Germans back.

 

[CaliGuy]

Duan Qirui and the Anhui clique.

The Japanese government blatantly bribed him so that he wouldn't kick up a fuss over Japan taking over Shandong from the Germans in the aftermath of World War I (even though Duan Qirui was nominally the Premier of China, the farcical and fragmented nature of Chinese governance in the wake of Yuan Shikai meant that senior cabinet ministers were uninformed of the so-called Nishihara Loans, greatly embarrassing the Chinese envoy to Versailles, Wellington Koo). The Anhui clique furthermore in 1918, as thanks for the yens Japan was sending them, granted not just Japan the right to station troops in the formerly German concessions, but outright gave the Japanese the right to station troops in Manchuria, ostensibly to help defend against the Bolsheviks in Russia.

Very interesting! Did Japan support anyone else in China back then or just these guys?

An interesting point I heard on a recent BBC History Podcast was that talk of population and lebensraum was linked to German migration to America and many on the far right (even Hitler) wanted these ethnic Germans to return back to the Fatherland and that to get these Germans back they needed land for them as tempting offer. Maybe this alt-Germany will focus more on getting these former Germans back.

Frankly, I haven't heard of Hitler and the Nazis actually wanting to get the German diaspora in the Americas and elsewhere to actually return to Germany. Maybe there's some information and/or sources here that I'm missing, but I was under the impression that the Nazis were primarily interested in getting the European German diaspora to move to Germany (such as the Baltic Germans) as well as in securing additional Lebensraum so that Germany is able to keep as much of its existing ethnic German population as possible over the long(er)-run. In other words, I suspect that it was more a goal of population retention and a goal of getting the German diaspora in the New World to move back to Germany--though I could be wrong in regards to this. Some sources would, of course, certainly be nice here.

 

[Milo]

Very interesting! Did Japan support anyone else in China back then or just these guys?


Frankly, I haven't heard of Hitler and the Nazis actually wanting to get the German diaspora in the Americas and elsewhere to actually return to Germany. Maybe there's some information and/or sources here that I'm missing, but I was under the impression that the Nazis were primarily interested in getting the European German diaspora to move to Germany (such as the Baltic Germans) as well as in securing additional Lebensraum so that Germany is able to keep as much of its existing ethnic German population as possible over the long(er)-run. In other words, I suspect that it was more a goal of population retention and a goal of getting the German diaspora in the New World to move back to Germany--though I could be wrong in regards to this. Some sources would, of course, certainly be nice here.

I hadn't heard of it before but it was featured on this Podcast, can't remember at what section but its worth a listen