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Kimkatya's Kalamitous Kavern Kontaining Krap Kontent

Hosts of The Debate
1995-1999: Ken Livingstone and Alan Clark
1999-2000: Ken Livingstone and Edwina Currie
2000-2001: Derek Hatton and Edwina Currie
2001-2004: Peter Mandelson and Edwina Currie


2014 Scottish Referendum Special: Gordon Brown and Nicola Sturgeon

2016 Brexit Referendum Special: Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage

2017-2018: Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage
2018: Nick Clegg and Guest Hosts
2018-2020: Nick Clegg and George Galloway
2020-: Nick Clegg and Guest Hosts


The Debate was a television show started in 1995 for ITV, centred around two bombastic personalities. The snidely voiced socialist and former leader of the Greater London Council Ken Livingstone and the smug, bombastic former Tory minister, Alan Clark. It would have a simple premise. The two men were given a topic, and they would casually debate it out, allowing the viewer to come to their own conclusion. Nicknamed "After Snark", due to the similarities in the set design between it and the Channel 4 series After Dark, and also due to the two hosts’ arguing, the principle example of such being "The Welsh Debate", in 1998. Both Clark and Livingstone were Londoners, so taking it upon themselves to discuss Tony Blair's Welsh devolution ideas was an interesting idea for the two men. Livingstone, having gained his infamy in local government, defended the issue, while Clark of course attacked. As the debate continued, it was clearer and clearer that Clark was having trouble defeating Livingstone's well-versed knowledge in local government. And that is when the famous quote arrived.
Clark: "The problem, Ken, is that the Welsh have this big idea that they deserve devolution because they want to name every place after some kind of letter salad."

ITV was flooded with Welsh letters in protest at this affront against their culture, but it also brought the spotlight on this late-night debate show. Clark's "Politically Incorrect" humour appealed to those who would want to see him wipe the floor with a leftist like Livingstone, and Livingstone appealed to Labour voters, even those who thought of him as a Loony Leftist who hated Britain.

1999 came around. Alan Clark was diagnosed with brain cancer. Removed from the show, a temporary but possibly permanent replacement was dug up, the former Under-Secretary of State for Health Edwina Currie, best known for the Salmonella-In-Eggs Controversy. Currie had been a long-standing prominent figure in terms of former politicians, so entering the realm of permanent debate was no shock for her. She was chosen in favour of Spectator editor Boris Johnson, who, despite being more prominent, was considered to be less “prestigious” than a former minister.

Alan Clark died on the 5th of September 1999. But Livingstone was in a battle of his own, as he held interest in being Mayor of London, for which he was fighting for the Labour selection with the Secretary of State for Health, Frank Dobson, who was the candidate endorsed by Blair. Livingstone won the selection, despite decrying an “attempted stitch-up” by Blair due to Blair’s employment of the Trade Union block vote. Livingstone and Currie did the last show featuring an original host in 1999, where they casually discussed the race for the Mayor of London.

The replacement for Ken Livingstone was a much more frantic race than the one for Alan Clark. While it would be all well and good to replace him with someone actually liked by Labour spin doctors, the producers wanted someone who was more of a renegade, who would go against the government. A story told about The Debate is that Alastair Campbell, after an argument with a producer, asked why ”don’t you just get Derek bloody Hatton if you need a fucking renegade!“. The producer proceeded to calmly explain that Hatton had been in fact shortlisted. Campbell then immediately hung up. Derek Hatton started well, explaining that he wasn’t quite the Trotskyite that he once was. He and Currie had already been featured on an episode of Have I Got News For You. However, Hatton was gone within a year, mysteriously citing discomfort. He would later say that the Labour spin doctors forced him out.

In 2001, Labour cabinet minister and the “Prince of Darkness” Peter Mandelson was freed from his role as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He was not reshuffled into a new position, and although he held an important role in the party, he accepted his ministerial days were over. After the Hatton disaster, the producers were looking for anyone to take up a place. The popularity of the series was dropping rapidly, as while Currie may have worked in Clark’s role for a while, she was nowhere near as engaging as a screen presence. So they brought on Mandelson, after an extensive amount of convincing. This did not help the prospects of The Debate’s longevity. Ratings started to fall, and by late 2002, it was on the brink of cancellation. However, in November 2002, Edwina Currie published her diaries, which detailed an affair with former Prime Minister John Major in the mid-1980s.

A media storm erupted around the fact a former Prime Minister had an affair with a former minister who was currently on TV at the time. Many, many people suddenly tuned into The Debate simply because a woman from the tabloids was on it. The show used its fifteen minutes of fame in good use, with both Mandelson and Currie occasionally slipping in references to Currie’s “experience” with Major.

However, this could only extend the show‘s lifespan for so long. In late 2003, the show was announced to be ending. A silent fanbase that had popped up around the weekly debates between the hosts, politically aligned from Thatcher to Benn, campaigned for the show to be maintained, but unfortunately it didn’t get anywhere. The final show was aired February 12th, 2004, featuring guest debater Mayor of London Ken Livingstone, and in which Currie paid tribute to Alan Clark.

Hatton, of course, went unmentioned.

Time passed, and The Debate faded from the memories of the politicos of Britain, besides brief flares in attention whenever the series popped up in It’ll Be Alright On The Night. Labour lost power, and in 2014, the SNP made a deal with the Tory coalition of David Cameron and Nick Clegg to hold a referendum in relation to Scottish independence. The referendum, gaining a good deal of attention, gave an idea to ITV. What if they held a “special”, to see if a return could be profitable? The show, featuring former Prime Minister Gordon Brown representing the unionists, and Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon representing the Independence activists, didn’t go down well. Brown, known as a lifeless workaholic to many, didn’t have enough charisma to hold the show, and Sturgeon was simply not well-known enough to the people of Britain to hold a good enough showing. Most importantly, the referendum was simply too divided regionally to spark debate among the English population. ITV decided to shelve the idea.

Then came Brexit. The European Union had been discussed many times, most notably between Livingstone and Clark, when there was the “Battle of the Euroskeptics” in relation to the Conservative Party leadership election in what has been called by modern critics as one of the highlights of Series One. But the referendum divided the entire country significantly, and a new special was commissioned. ITV pulled two massive names. MEP and UKIP leader Nigel Farage, perhaps the most famous Euroskeptic in Britain, representing Leave, and former Deputy Prime Minister and Leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg, representing Remain. The debate was spirited, and shockingly highly watched, with the idea about who won being very clearly decided on the lines of the referendum.

This was enough of a reason for ITV to bring back the series. Clegg reluctantly came back, but Farage heavily overshadowed him on stage. If you asked a watcher who would leave sooner, the suggestion would almost universally be that Clegg would be the first to leave. However, Farage got an offer in 2018, from Fox News. He was of course attracted by the idea, and announced that he would be leaving the show. Clegg, however nervous he seemed on stage, appeared to enjoy the show, or at least enjoyed the salary.

The reaction from old fans to the Farage and Clegg iteration was with annoyance, mostly. They felt that the two hosts were no longer on ideological playing fields beyond remaining and leaving, and more importantly, they could feel the loathing between the two hosts. There was no discussion to them, just spite. Once Farage left, the show’s ratings dropped significantly. The Debate brought on guest hosts in the meantime, bringing back Livingstone, Mandelson and Currie for single shows, Livingstone to discuss whether he “handed” Mayor Osborne Greater London, Mandelson to discuss whether Labour or the Liberal Democrats offered a better future for Britain, and Currie to talk about the Tories and where they were going without the coalition underneath. The fans enjoyed these three shows, which endeared Clegg to them slightly.

Unfortunately, a new host had to be found, and Clegg’s ideological centrism and frankly bland presentation meant that they needed to be a Farage-level personality. George Galloway, the man who had just finally been dethroned as independent MP for Bethnal Green and Bow, was chosen. Galloway’s erratic tendencies matched well with Clegg’s extreme moderation, but Clegg, having actual ministerial experience, repeatedly wiped the floor with him each week. This, combined with Galloway’s apparent anti-semitism, led to his dismissal in late 2020. They are once again bringing in the guest hosts, and reportedly considering moving the show to a weekly release on Britbox. Reports of Galloway’s replacement are up in the air, with Farage being touted to return, but the question is still being held up.

Alan Clark and I were asked to co-host a late-night TV politics show but he was furious I had accepted a fee of £500 per programme. ‘Bloody fool, we could have got a grand at least,’ he said. He told me how the civil service isolated Thatcher from her rightwing supporters and was interested in the way we had organised the GLC to prevent that kind of isolation. Everything was fine until we filmed the pilot and Alan suddenly stopped being controversial and opinionated and came out with the standard party line. The programme was dropped but Alan got back into Parliament.
- Ken Livingstone, You Can't Say That
 
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Mayors of Second Life
Start of Time-2015: Boy Mayor of Second Life (Independent)
2015-2016: Duran Duran (Emergency Government)
2016-: Boy Mayor of Second Life (Independent)

def: Duran Duran (Duran Duran Party)

i just hope someone's going to get this reference
 
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trying to make a shitty "independent london post-brexit civil war" map with @VT45's base map of london with boroughs

considering making a giant london as a hoi4 map so you can zoom *all the way* into finsbury, idk, if you want to
i have no idea what to do with most of the outskirts, west london, most of south london, and greenwich and lewisham
shoot your shitty london ideas at me
View attachment 34543
dark red in lambeth and southwark is ken and some trots, orange is libdems, dark green is rahman, cyan in bromley is farage types, dark blue in barking and dagenham is BNP types, red in islington, camden, haringey and hackney is socialists, purple in hammersmith and fulham, westminster and kensington is Shirley Porter hyper-kleptocracy, and redbridge and waltham forest is something to do with iain duncan smith idk i haven't decided yet

i'm aware this is not my best work or anything, but it's a peter snow-esque bit of fun to me

if anyone has any ideas for the rest, i'd love to hear them!

actually good stuff coming eventually
I’d change Inner West London to Cameronites and put the weird authoritarian Labour technocrats in Greenwich and Lewisham. I don’t know why but I’ve met plenty from there. Maybe also put Wandsworth into the Liberal Tory mix, the council was seen as the perfect example of Thatcherite local politics during the 80s.

Most of Waltham Forest and Redbridge doesn’t really qualify for IDS’ 1000 Thousand Reich Now (apart from his constituency, and even that is changing). You can also create a BJP tribute act led by Barry Gardiner in the Hindu belt (Brent, Harrow and Ealing).

This is an idea I’d have loved to have btw, I’m now quite jealous!
 
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I’d change Inner West London to Cameronites and put the weird authoritarian Labour technocrats in Greenwich and Lewisham. I don’t know why but I’ve met plenty from there. Maybe also put Wandsworth into the Liberal Tory mix, the council was seen as the perfect example of Thatcherite local politics during the 80s.

Most of Waltham Forest and Redbridge doesn’t really qualify for IDS’ 1000 Thousand Reich Now (apart from his constituency, and even that is changing). You can also create a BJP tribute act led by Barry Gardiner in the Hindu belt (Brent, Harrow and Ealing).

This is an idea I’d have loved to have btw, I’m now quite jealous!
you can take it if you want to, i'm not quite as good at london's politics as i pretend to be!
 
The United Communist Federation, British Regional Branch Paramount Leaders

1962: General Ivan Konev
1962-1987: Gerry Healy (Socialist Worker's Party)
1987: Peter Taaffe-Ted Knight-Arthur Scargill (Socialist Worker's Party)
1987-1988: Peter Taaffe (Socialist Worker's Party)
1988-1990: Arthur Scargill (Socialist Worker's Party)


Leaders of The United Kingdom of Great Britain

1990-1992: Derek Hatton (New Beginning)

The British Civil War
1992-2005: Stage One (Major Conflict)


MAJOR FACTIONS
The Socialist Alliance
1992: Ken Livingstone-Tommy Sheridan-Arthur Scargill
1992-2005: Tommy Sheridan
2005-: George Galloway


The Organisation of Royalists (Nicknamed "The Purple Boys")

(De Jure)
1992-: Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

(De Facto)
1992-1995: "The Commissioner" Jeffrey Archer
1995-2005: "The Admiral" Ian Duncan Smith

2005- "The General" (Name Unknown)


MINOR INSURGENCY GROUPS
"The Tartans"
1992-2008: George Kerevan


"The Army of Wales"
1992-: No Central Leadership

"The Alliance For A White Britain"
1992-: No Central Leadership

Treaty of Calais Signed, United Kingdom of Great Britain Re-Established

2005-: Stage Two (Active Insurgency, Ongoing)

2005-2015: Charles Kennedy (New Radicals)
2005 (Majority) def: Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Collective Leadership (Scottish Interests), Ken Livingstone-Arthur Scargill (Stop French Interference/Free The Prisoners)
2010 (Minority) def: Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Michael Sugar (Torch Of Liberty), George Kerevan (Scottish Socialist Clan), Graeme Logan (Scottish Interests)

2015-: Michael Sugar (Torch Of Liberty)
2015 (Majority) def: Charles Kennedy (New Radicals), Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Progressive Alliance (Zac Goldsmith (Earth)-Ash Sarkar (Freedom For Minorities)), Graeme Logan (Scottish Interests)
2020 Election Suspended due to ongoing pandemic and the "Liverpool Nuke"


no i dont know what this is either, i started and i just couldn't stop
 
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The United Communist Federation, British Regional Branch Paramount Leaders

1962: General Ivan Konev
1962-1987: Gerry Healy (Socialist Worker's Party)
1987: Peter Taaffe-Ted Knight-Arthur Scargill (Socialist Worker's Party)
1987-1988: Peter Taaffe (Socialist Worker's Party)
1988-1990: Arthur Scargill (Socialist Worker's Party)


Leaders of The United Kingdom of Great Britain

1990-1992: Derek Hatton (New Beginning)

The British Civil War
1992-2005: Stage One (Major Conflict)


MAJOR FACTIONS
The Socialist Alliance
1992: Ken Livingstone-Tommy Sheridan-Arthur Scargill
1992-2005: Tommy Sheridan
2005-: George Galloway


The Organisation of Royalists (Nicknamed "The Purple Boys")

(De Jure)
1992-: Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

(De Facto)
1992-1995: "The Commissioner" Jeffrey Archer
1995-2005: "The Admiral" Ian Duncan Smith

2005- "The General" (Name Unknown)


MINOR INSURGENCY GROUPS
"The Tartans"
1992-2008: George Kerevan


"The Army of Wales"
1992-: No Central Leadership

"The Alliance For A White Britain"
1992-: No Central Leadership

Treaty of Calais Signed, United Kingdom of Great Britain Re-Established

2005-: Stage Two (Active Insurgency, Ongoing)

2005-2015: Charles Kennedy (New Radicals)
2005 (Majority) def: Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Collective Leadership (Scottish Interests), Ken Livingstone-Arthur Scargill (Stop French Interference/Free The Prisoners)
2010 (Minority) def: Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Michael Sugar (Torch Of Liberty), George Kerevan (Scottish Socialist Clan), Graeme Logan (Scottish Interests)

2015-: Michael Sugar (Torch Of Liberty)
2015 (Majority) def: Charles Kennedy (New Radicals), Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Progressive Alliance (Zac Goldsmith (Earth)-Ash Sarkar (Freedom For Minorities)), Graeme Logan (Scottish Interests)
2020 Election Suspended due to ongoing pandemic and the "Liverpool Nuke"


no i dont know what this is either, i started and i just couldn't stop
genuinely dont know what to do after this lmao
 
The United Communist Federation, British Regional Branch Paramount Leaders

1962: General Ivan Konev
1962-1987: Gerry Healy (Socialist Worker's Party)
1987: Peter Taaffe-Ted Knight-Arthur Scargill (Socialist Worker's Party)
1987-1988: Peter Taaffe (Socialist Worker's Party)
1988-1990: Arthur Scargill (Socialist Worker's Party)


Leaders of The United Kingdom of Great Britain

1990-1992: Derek Hatton (New Beginning)

The British Civil War
1992-2005: Stage One (Major Conflict)


MAJOR FACTIONS
The Socialist Alliance
1992: Ken Livingstone-Tommy Sheridan-Arthur Scargill
1992-2005: Tommy Sheridan
2005-: George Galloway


The Organisation of Royalists (Nicknamed "The Purple Boys")

(De Jure)
1992-: Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

(De Facto)
1992-1995: "The Commissioner" Jeffrey Archer
1995-2005: "The Admiral" Ian Duncan Smith

2005- "The General" (Name Unknown)


MINOR INSURGENCY GROUPS
"The Tartans"
1992-2008: George Kerevan


"The Army of Wales"
1992-: No Central Leadership

"The Alliance For A White Britain"
1992-: No Central Leadership

Treaty of Calais Signed, United Kingdom of Great Britain Re-Established

2005-: Stage Two (Active Insurgency, Ongoing)

2005-2015: Charles Kennedy (New Radicals)
2005 (Majority) def: Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Collective Leadership (Scottish Interests), Ken Livingstone-Arthur Scargill (Stop French Interference/Free The Prisoners)
2010 (Minority) def: Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Michael Sugar (Torch Of Liberty), George Kerevan (Scottish Socialist Clan), Graeme Logan (Scottish Interests)

2015-: Michael Sugar (Torch Of Liberty)
2015 (Majority) def: Charles Kennedy (New Radicals), Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative), Progressive Alliance (Zac Goldsmith (Earth)-Ash Sarkar (Freedom For Minorities)), Graeme Logan (Scottish Interests)
2020 Election Suspended due to ongoing pandemic and the "Liverpool Nuke"


no i dont know what this is either, i started and i just couldn't stop
From The Sensible Guide To Soviet Britain, by former councillor Andrew Adonis, on Medium.com.

"...In complete honesty, if you asked the Soviet High Command which would fall first, France or Britain, they would have laughed, spat in your face, and presumably would have carted you off to one of those gulags. In reality, Britain did fall first. The arguments to why are debated. Some people joked that it was presumably because Trotsky had never forgiven them for not giving him asylum in the 1930's. But invade they did, and with the help of what in essence could be called a miracle (or what some loony right-wingers call sabotage on behalf of the commie-loving workforce), Soviet boots stamped on Dover and Eastbourne..."

From Who Spoke For The Many? by Ken Livingstone, available in all slightly shady bookshops.

"Ted arrived at my house, shaking. He told me to sit down and shut up. "Ken, you know that Taaffe's outmaneuvered us both. He's going to kill us both. There is no feasible opportunity here." I told him to calm down, to stop ranting. He just continued on and on about how Peter had made every movement and pulled every string he had. There really was nothing I can do. On the edge of tears, I grabbed hold of Ted, told him that he was not going to die. He, of course, didn't believe me. "Gerry would have known what to do." He kept saying. He really couldn't believe what Peter said Gerry did to women. That night, Ted Knight shot himself. And even at the time, I knew there was nothing I could do."

From a reply by Time Enough to AHC: Make A Successful Flag Revolution? on the Fleur-De-Lis Press online forums.

"The problem is, as far as I can see, that Hatton was simply not a team player. He was unwilling to let Dr. Owen or any more experienced revolutionary figure take hold simply because he was the man in front, and he couldn't have anyone else taking him from the limelight. What you need is to get rid of Hatton in the first place. Maybe that Kiwi guy, forget his name, the socialist could take power instead? He was upfront in the revolution, need to read more about him."
 
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