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Ceausescu Lives On Scenarios

Yokai Man

Well-known member
Before we start,a few notes:

-Ceausescu’s precarious health at this point and his various illnesses can’t and shan’t be butterflied away and thus he has to live til late ‘91/early ‘92.

-His sole heir was Nicu and he didn’t care about anything beyond booze and women so don’t expect him to put up a fight.

-One way or the other Iliescu and his cronies are gonna reach on top at the end of all this.

1) The Final Act of the Warsaw Pact: Ceausescu still being in charge of Romania (beyond obviously effecting Romanians massively) is a major problem for his neighbors,especially Hungary. Regardless on how the revolution in Timisoara is put down (though I imagine it’s in a really bloody manner that destroys half the city at best),there are bound to be vast numbers of refugees from it running desperately towards Hungary or Yugoslavia and trying to force the border.

Added with Ceausescu coming more and more anti Hungarian and blaming Hungary (among others) for the events at Timisoara,it presents a delicate problem for the Hungarian governments of both pre and post 1990 election. They have to deal not only with a massive refugee crisis and a aggressive government at their front doors which openly loathes them,but also the real possibility of the Romanian government exacting,if not war at some point, more repressive towards members of the Hungarian minority. Maybe they’re all sent in Baragan in closed settlements. Maybe ghetto cities are created specially for them like Ceausescu thought of doing. Maybe he even forces the Hungarian government at the moment to pay for its ethnic minority to be allowed to leave Romania for a price. After all,Ceausescu does need the money and he did this before with the government of West Germany and Israel and it worked well for him.

This is not only a problem for Hungary,but also the Soviets as well. Beyond the obvious problems that the hardline Romanian government would give them,they have the unfortunate luck of this happening when the Warsaw Pact is still around,but only technically as everyone but them and Romania aren’t Communist anymore and don’t want to be part of it. Ceausescu’s aggressive actions though complicate the matter considerably. Do the Soviet troops still leave Hungary? Are the Soviets forced to intervene in this matter? If yes,then how? Is it taken by Soviets on their own or after an agreement in the other members of the still existing Warsaw Pact? Is the Pact still relevant in the scenario of one of its members attacking the other?

There are 2 possibilities here if actions are to be taken beyond sanctions:

a) unlikely but still possible-the Soviets go to war with Romania after something goes wrong on the border and either they advance til last remaining loyal Ceausescu forces remain or a coup happens and in both cases peace follows and Iliescu and his cronies are in charge.

Again though,it’s the least likely one: beyond Gorby not wanting to do another Czechoslovakia and legitimize Ceausescu’s anti Soviet rhetoric,it will make the all ready existent “stab in the back” myth in OTL even more powerful,to worrying effects.

b) the Soviets do aid a coup happening like many conspiracy theorists claim happened OTL (but didn’t btw) and Iliescu and his cronies are in charge.

2) Death By Diabetes: Like I mentioned,Ceausescu had a precarious health around this time,often having attacks of diabetes and even entering a diabetic coma after being told that West Germany recalled its ambassador on 4 April 1989. As such,it’s not outside the realms of plausibility that he couldn’t enter another due to stress and anger from all the changes and suffering another diabetic coma sometime in February/March 1990 that becomes lethal.

Thus Nicu could become Secretary General and the regime could fall more peacefully than OTL,given that he,unlike his dad or mom,didn’t actually believe in anything and just cared about partying it up all the time. Nicu however is not the important factor in this scenario though-it’s his entourage and allies.
Chief among them Iulian Vlad,the chief of Securitate. I can see him either taking over Iliescu’s place as the head honcho of FSN/whatever party created by former Party and Securitate members or being an interim figure that accepts Iliescu and his gang taking over “democratically”… for a price,of course. If the former happens,the Nineties are gonna be even worse given that Vlad,like Iliescu,wasn’t willing to accept any actual change in Romanian society-if not more than Iliescu. The Mineriad equivalents will be even more extreme than OTL (maybe even doing Adrian Sarbu’s plan of bombing University Square to stop protests and what not) and well,that’s not bad to put it lightly.
 
Even if the Warpac still technically exists, I'm not seeing its non-Hungarian/Soviet members having any appetite to actually fight.
Oh I know that,it’s just that I was wondering what would the response from the others be beyond recalling their ambassadors and condemning Ceausescu’s actions.

After all,what if he doesn’t try to do what he did with West Germany and Israel with them after Hungary? How do they respond to him demanding they give him money and in return Polish/Czech/Slovak/Bulgarian ethnics living in Romania don’t get harmed and are allowed to leave the country?
 
It feels like if he kept being himself and killing dissidents and screaming about Hungary while pointing guns over the border, there's going to be some sort of intervention but the big problem would be: who by? Unless there's a quiet word had with Hungary that hey, if they want to preemptively defend themselves, that's fine by Moscow and DC, and I hope Hungary doesn't look at this list of vital targets that the Soviet ambassador has open while he goes for a wee.
 
It feels like if he kept being himself and killing dissidents and screaming about Hungary while pointing guns over the border, there's going to be some sort of intervention but the big problem would be: who by? Unless there's a quiet word had with Hungary that hey, if they want to preemptively defend themselves, that's fine by Moscow and DC, and I hope Hungary doesn't look at this list of vital targets that the Soviet ambassador has open while he goes for a wee.
Well yes but again,this is during a time when Soviet troops are still in Hungary (and meant to be withdrawn) and the Warsaw Pact technically still exists.
 
Ah, so a real "oh shit" for Moscow
Yes and no-Ceausescu is not dumb enough to actually attack Hungary since he knows the Soviets can easily invade and destroy all armed forces in 8 hours (6 if Moscow is impatient) and Gorby doesn’t want a war (more due to PR reasons).

It can technically escalate if something goes wrong at the border but like Coiler said it’s nothing the Soviets can’t handle.

The problem is more to do with image. While Gorby isn’t actually a good guy and is quite willing to kill people to mentain his regime,
he promised the Soviets won’t do what they did in 1956/1968. He can’t do anything military wise against Romania less the latter attacks Hungary (which again unlikely but still possible in this tense situation) because that would mean/show that all his talk about the Soviet Union being willing to change is a lie and that they will invade others if they don’t do what they’re told. At least,in the eyes of most.

Not to mention that this actually is a situation where the USSR can ”bring order” but it’s tainted due to precedents. They lied too many times and caused too much hurt for people to believe them anymore.
 
I could see a brief Hungry-Romanian war possibly occurring due to border conflicts getting out of hand before the UN steps in because the Early 90s.

Of course even a brief UN presence would have a fascinating effect on Romanian politics to say the least.
Honestly,I don’t see that happening. At least,not in this scenario.
 
Honestly,I don’t see that happening. At least,not in this scenario.
Actually I just realised something, if Nicu’s decaying regime ends up committing ethnic cleansing and massacres as it collapses, I could see earlier Western Intervention in per say Yugoslavia as the realisation of what can occur in these former nations causes earlier action.
 
Actually I just realised something, if Nicu’s decaying regime ends up committing ethnic cleansing and massacres as it collapses, I could see earlier Western Intervention in per say Yugoslavia as the realisation of what can occur in these former nations causes earlier action.
That’s a good point.

It’s also worth wondering what the Hungarian government’s response is if Nicky wants to do the same “deal” that he did West Germany and Israel-give him money and some of the Hungarian ethnic citizens (especially dissidents) are allowed to leave unharmed OR ELSE.

On one hand they can’t pay him,let alone give in,but on the other hand,well,you know.

I should also mention that Ceausescu planned that by 2000 almost 5000-6000 villages were to be wiped out from the face of the earth along with every historical neighborhood in every Romanian city and replaced with new cities so yeah,expect a few more villages and historical monuments to be destroyed til a coup happens in mid ‘90-mid ’91 at most.
 
It’s also worth wondering what the Hungarian government’s response is if Nicky wants to do the same “deal” that he did West Germany and Israel-give him money and some of the Hungarian ethnic citizens (especially dissidents) are allowed to leave unharmed OR ELSE.

On one hand they can’t pay him,let alone give in,but on the other hand,well,you know.
Hungarian Citizens being exterminated would probably make the West sit up, given that Hungry was the most Western friendly of the Former Warsaw Pact etc.

I could see a 1991 Coup against Nicu could just leading to NATO/UN going “Fuck it” and deciding that an actual regime change would be needed (given that I doubt the new fellas would be clean and all that).

Could see the new Russian flexing it’s muscles in the area to both look good to the West and also to distract the Citizenry from Shock Therapy.
 
Hungarian Citizens being exterminated would probably make the West sit up, given that Hungry was the most Western friendly of the Former Warsaw Pact etc.

I could see a 1991 Coup against Nicu could just leading to NATO/UN going “Fuck it” and deciding that an actual regime change would be needed (given that I doubt the new fellas would be clean and all that).

Could see the new Russian flexing it’s muscles in the area to both look good to the West and also to distract the Citizenry from Shock Therapy.
Again,hard to see that happening.
 
Again,hard to see that happening.
Could see a regime change by a military junta and subsequent clamp down on civil rights could lead to 1990s Romania being seen as the Iraq of Eastern Europe ala Yugoslavia of the period.

It’s entirely possible that said regime gets usurped during the Colour Revolutions.
 
Could see a regime change by a military junta and subsequent clamp down on civil rights could lead to 1990s Romania being seen as the Iraq of Eastern Europe ala Yugoslavia of the period.

It’s entirely possible that said regime gets usurped during the Colour Revolutions.
Or that it collapses economically during the late Nineties.

The way I see things going though is :

-Ceasca goes too far,gets couped in late '90/early '91

-Gușă remains as an interim leader til he hands over power to Iliescu and his cronies after things are stable in 2-3 days or elections happen in 6 months time and are won by Iliescu and his cronies

-The Iliescu Years happens but are more harsher,especially economically,and social tensions are bigger

A lot of things can happen though in the time between Gușă taking charge and Iliescu winning the elections which will affect Romania deeply politically.
 
If Romania and Hungary go to war, I suppose it isn't impossible that Hungary annexes Szekely Land, and possibly a corridor, especially if there was some kind of genocidal action towards the Hungarian minority.
 
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