Caribbean Cold War: It's Jihad, Then

[Charles EP M.]

Discuss this article by @Gary Oswald here!

 

[Coiler]

I knew of Trinidad's South Asian population from, of all things, the demographics of the victims of the Paria pipeline disaster (where five divers got sucked into an oil pipe and four died).

 

[Gary Oswald]

One of the most notable thing about this article to me is I literally don't mention Tobago once. I hadn't realised just how unbalanced in terms of population the two islands are until I started writing about it, Tobago has 60,000 people living there and Trinidad has 1.4 million. As a result Trinidad has 39 MPs and Tobago has 2. Tobago isn't irrelevant in terms of Politics, two PMs have come from there, but it lacks the racial diversity of Trinidad, due to a much earlier conquest and slave plantation system, and so isn't really representative of the overall political trends. Certainly most of my sources talked about the history of T & T and the History of Trinidad as basically being the same and as such whatever was happening in Tobago during all this is simply not mentioned.

 

[Charles EP M.]

Trinidad & Tobago, the England & Wales of the Caribbean?

 

[Alex Richards]

One of the most notable thing about this article to me is I literally don't mention Tobago once. I hadn't realised just how unbalanced in terms of population the two islands are until I started writing about it, Tobago has 60,000 people living there and Trinidad has 1.4 million. As a result Trinidad has 39 MPs and Tobago has 2. Tobago isn't irrelevant in terms of Politics, two PMs have come from there, but it lacks the racial diversity of Trinidad, due to a much earlier conquest and slave plantation system, and so isn't really representative of the overall political trends. Certainly most of my sources talked about the history of T & T and the History of Trinidad as basically being the same and as such whatever was happening in Tobago during all this is simply not mentioned.

IIRC there was an attempt by Tobago to split off for pretty much this reason, though as Barbuda and Nevis it was shot down by the total lack of interest from Whitehall.

I certainly think there's milage in a UK that goes down the French integrationist route - possibly in the aftermath of the oft-suggested 'Malta referendum goes the other way' (irrespective of the question marks over that actually happening) retaining quite a few more of a smaller Caribbean islands. It requires a view of 'national prestige over expense' as opposed to 'get those money sinks off the books', but there was definitely a mindset which felt that being governed at arm's length from London was better than being dominated by a much larger neighbour.

 

[Wendell]

IIRC there was an attempt by Tobago to split off for pretty much this reason, though as Barbuda and Nevis it was shot down by the total lack of interest from Whitehall.

I certainly think there's milage in a UK that goes down the French integrationist route - possibly in the aftermath of the oft-suggested 'Malta referendum goes the other way' (irrespective of the question marks over that actually happening) retaining quite a few more of a smaller Caribbean islands. It requires a view of 'national prestige over expense' as opposed to 'get those money sinks off the books', but there was definitely a mindset which felt that being governed at arm's length from London was better than being dominated by a much larger neighbour.

United Kingdom of British Islands?

 

[Alex Richards]

United Kingdom of British Islands?

Redefining Gibraltar as an island feels like a very Admiralty move really.

 

[Death's Companion]

Redefining Gibraltar as an island feels like a very Admiralty move really.

I am sure if you looked you would find a paper study for using the power of the Atom to make it an island in the 1950s reinventing an idea first raised in the 1930s on the pages of the Eguneics Enquirier Weekly.

 

[Alex Richards]

I am sure if you looked you would find a paper study for using the power of the Atom to make it an island in the 1950s reinventing an idea first raised in the 1930s on the pages of the Eguneics Enquirier Weekly.

It's just occurred to me this is basically what King Magnús Óláfsson did to Kintyre by pulling his boat across the isthmus at Tarbet as part of treaty negotiations with the Scots in 1093.

 

[Wendell]

Redefining Gibraltar as an island feels like a very Admiralty move really.

Maybe Gibraltar remains a possession and is not integrated into the country proper?

 

[Death's Companion]

It's just occurred to me this is basically what King Magnús Óláfsson did to Kintyre by pulling his boat across the isthmus at Tarbet as part of treaty negotiations with the Scots in 1093.

Kings and that one middle aged bloke arguing with the council over planning permission are cast from same mold.

 

[Thande]

Then there's Alexander the Great doing the opposite to Tyre.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

The Jamaat al Muslimeen coup attempt was one of the parts of the weirdo West Indies Caribbean scenario I made up after browsing Wikipedia.

DBWI: What if the Hospers Postulate was never created?

We all remember the crazy first hundred days of the Hospers presidency, never mind the utter tumult of the '72 election that brought him to power. But while his war policy and appointment of Ayn Rand to Secretary of Housing and Urban Development get all the attention, the Hospers Postulate to the Monroe Doctrine gets little attention. (Though quite understandably so, given all the other policies that ensued.)

Indeed, if it wasn't President Hospers' enthusiastic support for the Abaco Independence Movement, perhaps his Latin American- specifically Caribbean- policy might never have mattered. Instead, he supported the AIM's self-determination play and lo and behold the Phoenix Foundation was able to help the movement overthrow the Bahamian government and establish an independent Republic of Abaco. And thanks to the arms and mercenaries provided by both the Phoenix Foundation and the United States government, Abaco quickly became a free market 'topia, a model hyperliberal economy before the '80s made Randian-Mitchellite economic policies the norm in the Anglosphere.

But far from "unleashing unlimited self-determination", the Postulate has since empowered far more than simply free marketeers, despite the Phoenix Foundation's activities from Vanatu to Mogadishu. Today, the Caribbean is a free fire zone; the white supremacist heirs of Operation Red Dog reign unsteadily over the Aryan Homeland of Dominica while the Rastafarian warriors of the Dreads wage a war of resistance against the mainland interlopers. Meanwhile, the jihadis and mujahideen of the Emirate of Trinidad and Tobago continue to raid infidel shipping. Despite repeated OAS missions, Tontons Macoute holdouts are reportedly still committing atrocities, invading both Hispaniola and other islands alike in their bid to retake Haiti. The bloody occupation of Grenada drags on for another decade, a bloody legacy of the Rand administration's Crusade Against Communism. And Cuba? Don't even think about it.

And a book:

The Myth of Libertarian Exit

Raymond Craib’s new book, Adventure Capitalism, traces the history of individualist, property-oriented “escape” projects pursued by the likes of Michael Oliver, Peter Thiel, and Bitcoin bros.

www.thenation.com

 

[Time Enough]

@Gary Oswald

It does always feel like most of the problems in 20th Century Caribbean can be partially blamed on the collapse of the West Indies Federation, which to begin with had the strong energy of ‘seems like a good idea on paper, failed when put into practice’.

 

[Gary Oswald]

@Gary Oswald

It does always feel like most of the problems in 20th Century Caribbean can be partially blamed on the collapse of the West Indies Federation, which to begin with had the strong energy of ‘seems like a good idea on paper, failed when put into practice’.

I think the West Indies Federation was a British attempt to avoid the inability of most of the islands to fund themselves by making the oil fields of Trinidad fund them. It's uncertain why Trinidad would ever go for that.

The crippling lack of infrastructure of countries that were only ever built as slave plantations is something that's hard to overcome, its not easy to suddenly try and reverse decades of neglect and inequality. And the UK didn't want to have to pay those bills themselves.

The UK joining the EEC was the main death knoll for the French system being adopted because Martinique and Guadeloupe had moved away from a model of agricultural export but the likes of Barbados or Nevis hadn't. Without special protections, the end of imperial preference would be horrific for them, hence the push to make that Jamaica and Trinidad's problem.

Like in OTL Barbados ended up selling out the sugar production industry by adapting the American Dollar when their main markets were in europe, because american tourism was seen as more reliable income. Agricultural export simply wasn't viable without at least a Caribbean customs union.

 

[rfmcdonald]

I think the West Indies Federation was a British attempt to avoid the inability of most of the islands to fund themselves by making the oil fields of Trinidad fund them. It's uncertain why Trinidad would ever go for that.

The crippling lack of infrastructure of countries that were only ever built as slave plantations is something that's hard to overcome, its not easy to suddenly try and reverse decades of neglect and inequality. And the UK didn't want to have to pay those bills themselves.

The UK joining the EEC was the main death knoll for the French system being adopted because Martinique and Guadeloupe had moved away from a model of agricultural export but the likes of Barbados or Nevis hadn't. Without special protections, the end of imperial preference would be horrific for them, hence the push to make that Jamaica and Trinidad's problem.

Like in OTL Barbados ended up selling out the sugar production industry by adapting the American Dollar when their main markets were in europe, because american tourism was seen as more reliable income. Agricultural export simply wasn't viable without at least a Caribbean customs union.

I am not sure I understand. What kept the British Caribbean from adopting the economic model of the French Caribbean?

 

[Gary Oswald]

I am not sure I understand. What kept the British Caribbean from adopting the economic model of the French Caribbean?

Well it has. In that the French Caribbean is primarily funded by tourism rather than agriculture and imports most of its food with most of its employed people working in services. That is also true of the British Caribbean.

But it wasn't true so much at the time of independence when both agricultural exports and inter island agricultural trade was a much bigger deal within the British Caribbean compared to the French.

The economic argument at the time, was that the British Caribbean export economy was propped up by being able to trade with the commonwealth on favourable terms thanks to imperial preference. Since Britain was intending to move away from that in favour of trade with europe, then since Britain was never going to keep Trinidad that puts up a tarrif between Trinidad and Tobago unless Tobago also leaves the Empire.

 

[RyanF]

Seeing the telly station taken over by Abu Bakr was TTT (Trinidad and Tobago Television), now want a vignette where insurrectionists seize the Tyne Tees Television studios.

 

[Geordie]

Seeing the telly station taken over by Abu Bakr was TTT (Trinidad and Tobago Television), now want a vignette where insurrectionists seize the Tyne Tees Television studios.

"A daring raid by partisans connected to the Thornaby Independence Party has seized a television studio in Gateshead today..."