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Alternate History General Discussion

It might be because cyberpunk was The Future and people are still trying to do it as a retro-looking-future - the better to explain the tech - than going "the 90s had working VR why not" like steampunkers do.

‘Cybersyn but all of Britain is controlled by it’

Yeah, that seems such an obvious AH thing to do. (Wikipedia tells me a Chilean writer did a Cybersyn AH but I don't believe it's translated)
 
It might be because cyberpunk was The Future and people are still trying to do it as a retro-looking-future - the better to explain the tech - than going "the 90s had working VR why not" like steampunkers do.
True, I can understand that. I think though given how most Cyberpunk stuff is set in the early 00s at the latest, I think it’s time we try and do some chunky Computer Cyberpunk Alternate History.
Yeah, that seems such an obvious AH thing to do. (Wikipedia tells me a Chilean writer did a Cybersyn AH but I don't believe it's translated)
I saw that too. It does seem like something that should have been done, alongside ‘Fred Perry Barlow and the other Internet utopianists gets there dream for the Internet and it goes horribly wrong’
 
It’s probably fair to say that Gwenno Saunders has gotten the closest to doing alternate history music, unintentionally that is, through albums like Le Kov which is done entirely in Cornish and sound like if Britain was a more multi lingual society and Cornish was still a prominent language (like Bowie recording songs in French etc).
 
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TNO has like, four cybersyn expies. But yeah, it is odd given how much socialist fanboyism it generates that it's not more of a trope.
Maybe it’s because most can’t fathom how to turn into a story with stakes?

Also whilst the Left does seem prominent in Alternate History circles, there does seem to be an avoidance of indulging too much in certain ideas (like I’ve seen many discussions about a Benn Premiership but none that play it straight for example).
 
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It’s probably fair to say that Gwenno Saunders has gotten the closest to doing alternate history music, unintentionally that is, through albums like Le Kov which is done entirely in Cornish and sound like if Britain was a more multi lingual society and Cornish was still a prominent language (like Bowie recording songs in French etc).
Allow me to blow your mind.
 
Maybe it’s because most can’t fathom how to turn into a story with stakes?

Also whilst the Left does seem prominent in Alternate History circles, there does seem to be an avoidance of indulging too much in certain ideas (like I’ve seen many discussions about a Benn Premiership but none that play it straight for example).
Just can't imagine yourself winning for once.
 
I find it amusing there’s probably more deconstructions of incredibly Left Wing Governments than unabashed Utopian visions. I guess that’s relatively healthy.

My experience/hunch is that the lack of utopian TLs in internet AH is kind of like the comparative lack of Axis victories. That is, that it's probably due to a residual feeling of "don't do this", where the specifics are understood more than the substance behind it.

(Basically, it's "don't do utopian TLs because THAT'S BAD and other people aren't doing them", not "don't do utopian TLs because most of the time the lack of conflict makes for a bad story".)
 
I've got the impression that Utopia's are unpopular in AH in general - online and published -

I think part of it is "lack of conflict makes for a bad story", but that's not all of it. Utopian storys have two other problems. The first is common to Utopian sci-fi as well - that what you consider a Utopia might not be considered to be such by the reader, making it a very uncomfortable experience. Very pertinant to e.g. an unironic Tony Benn premiership TL, which many would see as an absolute dystopia.

But the other is subtler and specific to AH. For a dystopian AH there's always the sense of "we dodged that bullet" behind it, and that the idea that we live in the better timeline helps create the distance which softens the darkness of the story. A Utopian AH is arguably in some ways darker and more depressing than a dystopian one - we've missed an opportunity in real history, and we can never get it back - they've dodged a bullet we've taken. This clashes with the tone of the story, which is very likely to be upbeat because, well, good things are happening. Done well it can be bittersweet, but done wrong it's just hollow.

A couple of my vaguer (which is saying something) AH story ideas are "Utopian". The first one I hope to really lean into the whole "missed opportunity" idea and avoid the tonal dissonance by having the protaganist effectively rant and rave about how if only they had (randomly choosing a specific example) realised the dangers of the SARS2 outbreak sooner they could have saved hundreds of lives in Wuhan. Effectively, imagining the Utopia to the Utopia. The 2nd, which is going to be much harder is to try and fix a problem that isn't too late to fix in OTL.

I don't think it's a co-incidence that when we did the "Utopia" vignette challenge on here, the eventual winner (written by AndyC I believe) came to the conclusion that the Utopia that the characters had striven so hard to create

was OTL. In the "original" time line Hitler dies in 1944; the protaganists first do the standard thing of killing Hitler earlier but realise that without Nazism being discredited an even worse Fascist movement appears. Eventually they not only try to keep Hitler alive but actually end up impersonating him to ensure that Nazism is utterly defeated and discredited.
 
I know Alternate History Steampunk and Dieselpunk are a thing but I’m surprised we haven’t seen a slew of Alternate History Cyberpunk and not even in the ‘The Cold War Never Ended Way’

I mean like, ‘Cybersyn but all of Britain is controlled by it’ or ‘Soviet Computer Administers Control Is Successful’ etc.

I’ve seen maybe one Alternate History Cyberpunk story, which was actually incredibly good.
A while back, I came up with a kind of Alternate History Cyberpunk setting for a play-by-post RP game I was gonna run where the POD was that the 1984 Rajneeshee Bioterror attacks were successful, allowing them to take over the county, with the assorted Rajneeshee business ventures eventually consolidated into a global Megacorp that wielded a ton of influence. Appropriately enough, I had it so that the country that was economic and culturally dominant in said setting was India. Sadly, I haven't really gotten a chance to work on it much, which is a shame cause it was neat.
 
(Basically, it's "don't do utopian TLs because THAT'S BAD and other people aren't doing them", not "don't do utopian TLs because most of the time the lack of conflict makes for a bad story".)
Yeah, that wouldn’t surprise me. Though part of me is a bit like ‘Well if Iain Banks could do it’s for SCFI, surely someone could do it for Alternate History’.

But the other is subtler and specific to AH. For a dystopian AH there's always the sense of "we dodged that bullet" behind it, and that the idea that we live in the better timeline helps create the distance which softens the darkness of the story. A Utopian AH is arguably in some ways darker and more depressing than a dystopian one - we've missed an opportunity in real history, and we can never get it back - they've dodged a bullet we've taken. This clashes with the tone of the story, which is very likely to be upbeat because, well, good things are happening. Done well it can be bittersweet, but done wrong it's just hollow.
True, very true. I do tend to myself, take a glass half full approach to most of my alternate history stories in a way, since I don’t particularly find catharsis in most dystopia’s (but that’s because I spent most of my late teens going ‘This is shit’ and I rather wouldn’t feel like that). But yeah, I think approaching it in a bittersweet fashion and acknowledging that there’s always going to be good and bad could help I guess.

A while back, I came up with a kind of Alternate History Cyberpunk setting for a play-by-post RP game I was gonna run where the POD was that the 1984 Rajneeshee Bioterror attacks were successful, allowing them to take over the county, with the assorted Rajneeshee business ventures eventually consolidated into a global Megacorp that wielded a ton of influence. Appropriately enough, I had it so that the country that was economic and culturally dominant in said setting was India. Sadly, I haven't really gotten a chance to work on it much, which is a shame cause it was neat.
Damn that sounds like fun and rather inventive. I do have to say, I do like the idea of playing with Cyberpunk and Alternate History, for example writing a Cyberpunk novel from a perspective of someone in an alternate history could be interesting, so for example a Cyberpunk story from a ‘Labour Wins In 92’ universe etc.
Back in 2013, a friend of I were commenting that the Cyberpunk 2013/2020 timeline only really made sense as an alternate history with a POD in the 1980's. I abortively sketched a sort of timeline out with a POD in 1984, but decided it was kind of silly to get too detailed in creating a fictional setting for a game.
I tried to do similar for the Patlabor franchise before realising that you would probably need at least One Pre-Show Airing POD for it to work. Still, could be fun.
 
Yeah, that wouldn’t surprise me. Though part of me is a bit like ‘Well if Iain Banks could do it’s for SCFI, surely someone could do it for Alternate History’.

Good execution can make the biggest sow's ear into a silk purse. It's harder but it can be done.

Although on a slightly related note, I think outright sci fi is less likely to be labeled "alternate history" even if it can pretty qualify as such. Maybe it's because it's clearly "different" already and the marketers don't see the need to add more "THIS IS DIFFERENT" signs?
 
Thinking about it, Banks pulled off his utopia by cheerfully showing some of the iffy edges of how it got there and stayed there (the first book is even from the POV of people they're at war with), while the bulk of tales are about agents of the utopia going to places that aren't. So that would point to a solution with utopian AHs and finding the story, they have to go to the parts that aren't a utopia yet.

Though in some cases I can see that getting a bit worrying in a way alien planets is not. You couldn't really do a Special Circumstances with Utopian People's Confederation Of Great Britain because that'd smack of "what if Cold War shenanigans but Good Actually", depending on the country. (Now if it was a smaller or developing nation IOTL, that might be easier to get away with. Utopian Haiti sends special agents to the Confederacy or something)
 
Thinking about it, Banks pulled off his utopia by cheerfully showing some of the iffy edges of how it got there and stayed there (the first book is even from the POV of people they're at war with), while the bulk of tales are about agents of the utopia going to places that aren't. So that would point to a solution with utopian AHs and finding the story, they have to go to the parts that aren't a utopia yet.

Though in some cases I can see that getting a bit worrying in a way alien planets is not. You couldn't really do a Special Circumstances with Utopian People's Confederation Of Great Britain because that'd smack of "what if Cold War shenanigans but Good Actually", depending on the country. (Now if it was a smaller or developing nation IOTL, that might be easier to get away with. Utopian Haiti sends special agents to the Confederacy or something)

I would also just not believe it. You can show me the utopia if you want, but if you don't show me the utopia and just have someone claiming to be a representative of a land that has achieved utopia, I'm going to assume they're a liar, especially if they lay it on thick about how great they are. Actual utopias are way less prevalent than propaganda claims of utopia.
 
A better future is one thing, but utopia is something else. The 1990s as existed in various countries would've been a better future if you asked someone in the 1970s about it, and telling someone in the Troubles about Northern Ireland of the 2010s would've been a better future, but none would consider that a utopia, "oh so the violence is over but those guys are the government then?" (And that's ignoring the bits they'd find shocking because our social mores have changed. An episode of Pinky and the Brain went "ha ha WORKPLACE SEXUAL HARASSMENT that's not real what a bunch of PC crap, the creators as existed might be quite startled if they time-travelled to see that it's even more hardline and it's a norm)
 
Although on a slightly related note, I think outright sci fi is less likely to be labeled "alternate history" even if it can pretty qualify as such. Maybe it's because it's clearly "different" already and the marketers don't see the need to add more "THIS IS DIFFERENT" signs?
Ala, Blade Runner 2049 which is essentially 1982’s vision of the future and all that.
Now if it was a smaller or developing nation IOTL, that might be easier to get away with. Utopian Haiti sends special agents to the Confederacy or something
I would definitely read something like that, it would be fascinating to explore.
Being unable to imagine a better future even as a literary exercise is the opposite of healthy.
As @Charles EP M. said;
A better future is one thing, but utopia is something else. The 1990s as existed in various countries would've been a better future if you asked someone in the 1970s about it, and telling someone in the Troubles about Northern Ireland of the 2010s would've been a better future, but none would consider that a utopia, "oh so the violence is over but those guys are the government then?" (And that's ignoring the bits they'd find shocking because our social mores have changed. An episode of Pinky and the Brain went "ha ha WORKPLACE SEXUAL HARASSMENT that's not real what a bunch of PC crap, the creators as existed might be quite startled if they time-travelled to see that it's even more hardline and it's a norm)
As I said, I take a glass half full view of alternate history myself and when I write it I try and ensure that it’s fair to say that things could be considered ‘better’ of sorts. Utopia is always different to a better future, Bellamy is very different to Robida and all that.
 
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