Alternate History General Discussion

I have a concept for a timeline about a fictional ethnic group and culture branching off from a real one, but have no idea where to start.
 
The Red said:
Yeah that’s why it’s on the nose, it sounds sinister to the reader in the present day but doesn’t make much sense ITTL. The notion of a “Third Reich” came about from Weimar-era reactionaries who considered the republic to be an aberration, there’s no need for a Third if the same people have taken control of Second.
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It's funny how in fiction military juntas always have these extremely sinister names, while in real life their names all sound like some think tank whose only job is to produce studies about improving national morale. Well except Communist juntas, those are always called like The Revolutionary Council for the Revolution.
 
In World War I, was the dreamed-of 1915-17 Big Breakthrough and exploitation possible even if all the things that could go right did? And even if it did happen, would it lead to anything (yes, I know this depends on context) other than the trench line reforming with a giant bulge in it compared to before (talk about the anachronistic Battle of the Bulge)
 
IanBertram said:
Possibly not so different to OTL as you are looking for.
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Enjoyed it, but it kinda just replaces the US with the BNA.

What I've been wanting is basically I guess a North America that somehow ends up more akin to say, Eastern Europe or such, a bunch of states that are not entirely friends (and some definitely despise each other), but not necessarily perpetually hostile. Without a singular "super state" dominating the continent.

Naturally the problem is it's probably require the East Coast to be split between the Dutch, French, Brits, Spanish, (Swedes, Norwegians, some German State?) that keep eachother distracted enough to not expand westward enough until something like Natives manage to establish a better basis for resisting said expansion. (The Crazier idea would feature colonies from Asia on the Western side, and effectively making the continent into something like the Balkans, ig)

Mostly because I think it'd be an interesting setting for other stories to not have the mystical Americans who can Deus Ex Forever War any problems brought up by other petulent states.
 
How would you prevent the Bolsheviks from coming to power in Russia without preventing WWI altogether or preventing the Allies from winning WWI? What's the most realistic way to do this?
 
Kitaro said:
How would you prevent the Bolsheviks from coming to power in Russia without preventing WWI altogether or preventing the Allies from winning WWI? What's the most realistic way to do this?
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The easiest is: "It's all over by Christmas."

The easiest way to do that is to have Sir John French cooperate with the French during the Race to the Sea.

After the Germans were held on the Marne, there then began the Race to the Sea, where each side tried to get around the northern flank of the other. As this happened, an enormous hole opened up between the German 1st Army (the northernmost) and the 2nd (the next in line), with a gap of some 30 miles between them. And sitting right where this gap was lay the BEF. The French command asked French (confusing, isn't it) to drive the BEF into this gap to separate the German forces. Being Sir John French, he didn't pay any attention, and the opportunity was lost.

Battle_of_the_Marne_-_Map.jpg

There's your gap, General. Right there by Chateau Thierry. Get there, and everything German from Verdun onwards is lost.​


However, if he had done so, the German forces would have been in a very awkward position. Their 1st Army would have been isolated and could be assailed from three sides (and this was before the trench systems were in place), and had the options of annihilation or rout. The 2nd Army would have had to break through the BEF, with unprepared attacks and only local artillery support (heavy artillery support still way in the rear because these armies had been moving faster than they could) against troops in a strong defensive posture - these self same troops who, against prepared attacks, had caused havoc amongst the German forces.

If the Germans couldn't break through very quickly, the French Forces of Manoeuvre could use the opportunity to get around the flank of the German line (held in place by the BEF), and sweep across the lines of supply.

Should that have happened, then the German Armies 1-5 would almost certainly have been placed into the discard pile, and 6 and 7 would be hard pushed to slip out from under.

It's all over by Christmas, and Russia hasn't had 1915 and 1916 and 1917 bleeding uselessly.

Other options are possible, but this strikes me as the most obvious route.
 
David Flin said:
The easiest is: "It's all over by Christmas."

The easiest way to do that is to have Sir John French cooperate with the French during the Race to the Sea.

After the Germans were held on the Marne, there then began the Race to the Sea, where each side tried to get around the northern flank of the other. As this happened, an enormous hole opened up between the German 1st Army (the northernmost) and the 2nd (the next in line), with a gap of some 30 miles between them. And sitting right where this gap was lay the BEF. The French command asked French (confusing, isn't it) to drive the BEF into this gap to separate the German forces. Being Sir John French, he didn't pay any attention, and the opportunity was lost.

Battle_of_the_Marne_-_Map.jpg

There's your gap, General. Right there by Chateau Thierry. Get there, and everything German from Verdun onwards is lost.​


However, if he had done so, the German forces would have been in a very awkward position. Their 1st Army would have been isolated and could be assailed from three sides (and this was before the trench systems were in place), and had the options of annihilation or rout. The 2nd Army would have had to break through the BEF, with unprepared attacks and only local artillery support (heavy artillery support still way in the rear because these armies had been moving faster than they could) against troops in a strong defensive posture - these self same troops who, against prepared attacks, had caused havoc amongst the German forces.

If the Germans couldn't break through very quickly, the French Forces of Manoeuvre could use the opportunity to get around the flank of the German line (held in place by the BEF), and sweep across the lines of supply.

Should that have happened, then the German Armies 1-5 would almost certainly have been placed into the discard pile, and 6 and 7 would be hard pushed to slip out from under.

It's all over by Christmas, and Russia hasn't had 1915 and 1916 and 1917 bleeding uselessly.

Other options are possible, but this strikes me as the most obvious route.
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Interesting! What are some later options for this?
 
Kitaro said:
Interesting! What are some later options for this?
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Gallipoli works - the initial attempt to push through the straits works. Turkey is knocked out of the war, opening up another transport route to Russia, bolstering logistics in the south, and the butterflies from here stave off the Russian collapse.

Russia, after the February Revolution, and before the Bolsheviks come into play, pulls out of the war, staving off the big revolution later.

von Papen goes ahead with his scheme to invade Canada from America using German-Americans and Irish-Americans disguised as cowboys (it was seriously proposed), which has the effect of pissing off America and bringing the US into the war well ahead of schedule.

Britain's RN gets a dose of sanity and introduce convoys much, much earlier, blunting the force of the U-boat offensive, and causing the U-boat offensive to start targeting lone merchant ships - which means American ships - bringing the US into the war that much earlier.

Russia's Generals in the early war (Tannenburg, I'm looking at you) are magically transformed into having the competence of the average earthworm, and decide to fight the Germans rather than each other.

The Haber process doesn't come around in time, and Germany runs out of shells.

Kitchener doesn't have any say in the training of the army he raised. A million unnecessary Allied casualties are saved, with consequent knock-on effects for attrition.

Will that do for starters?
 
Coiler said:
In World War I, was the dreamed-of 1915-17 Big Breakthrough and exploitation possible even if all the things that could go right did? And even if it did happen, would it lead to anything (yes, I know this depends on context) other than the trench line reforming with a giant bulge in it compared to before (talk about the anachronistic Battle of the Bulge)
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I suppose all the building blocks are there, concentrated armour and airpower were already being conceptualised, and creeping barrages and improvised motorisation of forces had already been used successfully. A breakthrough is possible the issue is then maintaining the momentum after what is likely going to be several days of costly fighting, and trying to stick to a single goal, which was the Germans undoing in the Spring Offensive. If memory serves Model complained prior to Citadel that no-one had ever tried to make a Somme-style defence their schwerpunkt before, and for good reason.
 
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Yülia said:
Enjoyed it, but it kinda just replaces the US with the BNA.

What I've been wanting is basically I guess a North America that somehow ends up more akin to say, Eastern Europe or such, a bunch of states that are not entirely friends (and some definitely despise each other), but not necessarily perpetually hostile. Without a singular "super state" dominating the continent.

Naturally the problem is it's probably require the East Coast to be split between the Dutch, French, Brits, Spanish, (Swedes, Norwegians, some German State?) that keep eachother distracted enough to not expand westward enough until something like Natives manage to establish a better basis for resisting said expansion. (The Crazier idea would feature colonies from Asia on the Western side, and effectively making the continent into something like the Balkans, ig)
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That would be interesting. I don't know of anything like that. The Peace Keeper, by B L Blanchard is based on no European presence at all. Carina, by Alison Morton begins with a fragmented USA, but it's peripheral to the main story.
 
NotDavidSoslan said:
I have a concept for a timeline about a fictional ethnic group and culture branching off from a real one, but have no idea where to start.
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What's the concept?

Kitaro said:
How would you prevent the Bolsheviks from coming to power in Russia without preventing WWI altogether or preventing the Allies from winning WWI? What's the most realistic way to do this?
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@Kitaro, you could go for the Provisional Government don't act like stunads and call it a day with the war making a separate peace, but with the repercussions of what might happen to the former Russian Empire, who can really say.
 
David Flin said:
von Papen goes ahead with his scheme to invade Canada from America using German-Americans and Irish-Americans disguised as cowboys (it was seriously proposed), which has the effect of pissing off America and bringing the US into the war well ahead of schedule.
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Good thing you specified the cowboy disguises - without that, I'd think the whole scheme a bit harebrained.
 
Yülia said:
Enjoyed it, but it kinda just replaces the US with the BNA.

What I've been wanting is basically I guess a North America that somehow ends up more akin to say, Eastern Europe or such, a bunch of states that are not entirely friends (and some definitely despise each other), but not necessarily perpetually hostile. Without a singular "super state" dominating the continent.

Naturally the problem is it's probably require the East Coast to be split between the Dutch, French, Brits, Spanish, (Swedes, Norwegians, some German State?) that keep eachother distracted enough to not expand westward enough until something like Natives manage to establish a better basis for resisting said expansion. (The Crazier idea would feature colonies from Asia on the Western side, and effectively making the continent into something like the Balkans, ig)

Mostly because I think it'd be an interesting setting for other stories to not have the mystical Americans who can Deus Ex Forever War any problems brought up by other petulent states.
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I read a book about the Articles of Confederation recently and it’d be fairly easy to nip the US in the bud then by virtue of sheer dysfunction.
 
TR1996 said:
Good thing you specified the cowboy disguises - without that, I'd think the whole scheme a bit harebrained.
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Harebrained is basically a good summary of all the German espionage efforts in the US in WW1, including the ones that worked.

One of the best ones is the sabotage operation the New York police cracked because they tapped a suspected German agent's phone and tracked down the guy who kept making drunken, threatening phone calls demanding money, who turned out to be a former agent who had been fired and left unpaid because he was, get this, an unreliable drunk!
 
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