• Hi Guest!

    The costs of running this forum are covered by Sea Lion Press. If you'd like to help support the company and the forum, visit patreon.com/sealionpress

AHC and WI: Abortion Remains a Catholic Issue

I mean, I think taking that sort of proprietary attitude, for lack of a better word, out of the law books was an intentional and to some extent explicit part of the same 'rights revolution' as Roe. As long as parents were able to exert that sort of power over their children against those children's will, there was going to be a reaction against that (both on general principle and to prevent specific uses of that power), and that reaction was going to use legal proceedings as one of its tools in order to give young people more autonomy. And conversely, as long as there was any social movement that threatened that sense of authority, those parents with those 'traditional' attitudes were going to respond to that with their own movements, movements that would also use legal methods.

Then by that logic, wouldn't the law retaining a clear distinction between adults and minors facilitate in keeping abortion as a catholic issue?

let’s be honest every single modern social conservative movement has been about gaining more control over one’s children from jesus freaks

don’t want your kids to be gay, trans, make their own decisions about their bodies, be in interracial relationships, arguably Qanon, etc…

after WWII children began to gain more freedom, and that more than anything caused the base for these conservative movements. these freaks want to control their children forever and convince hysterical mothers who watch too much tv to do the same so their kid doesn’t end up in a hip hop style drug violence gang

Then a society ought have a right of privacy which keeps puritanical pearl-clutchers from messing with other people's kids.






The subject of the thread was, how abortion could remain a catholic issue. I answered the question. I did not endorse or support any particular position, or say whether such a thing would be good or bad. All I did was try to answer the original question, and point to historical stuff in a forum about historical questions.
 
Then by that logic, wouldn't the law retaining a clear distinction between adults and minors facilitate in keeping abortion as a catholic issue?
nah there’d still be some bs propaganda from the Fattest Pastor U Know about how abortions are telling little kids to give up on their kids or something
 
Then by that logic, wouldn't the law retaining a clear distinction between adults and minors facilitate in keeping abortion as a catholic issue?
I don't think so, in the same way that I don't think Roe not being decided would have - people would have pushed for minors to have abortion rights (or, in some cases, to create a legal framework for minors to access abortion) on the grounds that it would be inhumane in principle and unsafe in practice to force minors to undergo pregnancy against their will. In some states, they might even succeed; whether or not they did, the existence of such a movement would activate conservative Protestants in opposition to it, and in the same way as (in your account - I agree that a large part of the reaction was to minors' abortion rights, but reserve judgment as to how large of a part it was as opposed to general opposition to the Sexual Revolution) opposition to minors' abortion rights under Roe expanded into a movement of opposition to abortion rights in general, opposition to the movement in favor of minors' abortion rights would help Catholics enlist Protestants in the general anti-abortion project.
 
More seriously-I think that not allowing minors to seek abortions or reproductive health care, or parental notification, is extremely dangerous because of what is likely happening that gets a minor pregnant (and it is pretty damn well documented that comprehensive sex ed dramatically reduces teen pregnancy and abortion rates) but that's probably less relevant to the strictly AH question.
 
More seriously-I think that not allowing minors to seek abortions or reproductive health care, or parental notification, is extremely dangerous because of what is likely happening that gets a minor pregnant (and it is pretty damn well documented that comprehensive sex ed dramatically reduces teen pregnancy and abortion rates) but that's probably less relevant to the strictly AH question.

O'Connor's position basically amounted to "you can require parents to sign off on abortion for minors as a general manner, but only if in extreme circumstances social workers can go to a judge and have them sign off on an abortion being granted."

Have that win out early on over other circumstances, and that might dampen things.

I don't think any one policy change would prevent the big reaction to Roe OTL. You essentially just need a much narrower Roe which moves the conversation bit-by-bit so society can sort of adjust to it over time, rather than one big swoop. This was the main criticism of Roe of a lot of pro-choice legal scholars who absolutely wanted the Court to strike down the laws that the Court did in Roe v Wade. Lots of people bring up Ginsburg's criticism of Roe, but they miss that Ginsburg's criticism was that Roe did too much too fast, not that Roe struck down the laws in question.

Honestly, there's a pretty strong theory that most of what Roe said was merely advisory stuff for lower courts to play around with going forward, rather than part of the decision itself, and that Rehnquist's 1989 Webster opinion (which would had cut back Roe and its companion case to their facts) was what the Roe justices thought they were signing onto (since that's basically what Burger wrote in the Roe concurrence). Rehnquist in private notes in 1972 basically praised the Roe majority as having written a very nice opinion which he merely disagreed with - very different from the quasi-apocalyptic attitudes he and his allies adopted later on. The father of the right to privacy himself - William O Douglas - had a concurrence in Roe's companion case Doe v Bolton which doesn't really make any sense unless a lot of what Roe said Roe didn't really say.

If you have some of the phrasing of Roe itself be a little bit different, and the Court expands abortion access slowly over time - yes there will be social conservatives freaking out over it, but the 70-80% of the country in between the 10-15% most conservative/liberal will probably just accept the gradual growth of abortion access. It's worth taking into account that protestant southern states generally had more *liberal* abortion laws pre-Roe.

The way to get liberal/progressive progress in a broadly conservative society is to do it inch-by-inch, such that nobody really notices and people have a time to process it and get used to it, even if they disagree. LGBTQ+ rights in the Courts, for example, was a long-slog from 1996 (Romer v Evans) to 2015 (Obergefell v. Hodges), where each single step was taken around the time that a majority of the public supported it. When the Court gets involved in social change, it's usually just cleaning up what remains of an already-socially-overruled public consensus, or pushing the ball ahead by 5 to 10 years. Roe's problem wasn't that the laws in question should have been upheld (they probably shouldn't have), but rather than it did too much too fast. Eventually, there'll be a great amount of progress, and people will wonder why anybody ever opposed it at all.

Tbh, I sort of feel like if the Court took it slowly, Planned Parenthood v Casey is where America would have mostly been on the abortion issue by the time of Planned Parenthood v Casey OTL. For comparison, Loving v Virginia was in 1967, but most Americans (black or white) didn't approve of interracial marriage as a private matter until the 90s (though, I emphasize, they had much more liberal views as a question of whether other people should be *allowed* to have such marriages than they did when it came to the question of whether they *morally approved* of having such marriages themselves).



I guess this is a long way of saying that to avoid abortion becoming something other than a Catholic issue, it seems like you'd need to do a boiling frog type of approach. While lurking online, I've observed various pretty fundamentalist protestants and Christians who essentially say 'I think all abortions are evil, but the evils of not allowing to an extent - such as denying women freedom and liberty and equality - are even worse.' For what it's worth - Bill Brennan was a pre-Vatican II arch-catholic who was very very very pro-life as a matter of personal politics. My sense is that this sort of thing I just described is what the Roe Court was trying to get at, but it did too much too fast.


Also, Roe v Wade gets criticized as stupid way too much. If you read the case entirely, Blackmun basically went the extra mile trying to be meticulous and explain the long complicated history of medicine, the advisory function of the medical profession, the challenges of adopting a legal definition of life, how the states were grappling with this in all sorts of areas (like medical malpractice and inheritance laws), etc. I think the fairest criticism is that the Roe Court tried very hard to explain itself and get a very difficult question right, nobody bothered to read the thing in its entirety, the Court probably overdid it in a single couple of cases, and everybody's been talking past each other ever since.
 
O'Connor's position basically amounted to "you can require parents to sign off on abortion for minors as a general manner, but only if in extreme circumstances social workers can go to a judge and have them sign off on an abortion being granted."

Have that win out early on over other circumstances, and that might dampen things.

Also, Roe v Wade gets criticized as stupid way too much. If you read the case entirely, Blackmun basically went the extra mile trying to be meticulous and explain the long complicated history of medicine, the advisory function of the medical profession, the challenges of adopting a legal definition of life, how the states were grappling with this in all sorts of areas (like medical malpractice and inheritance laws), etc. I think the fairest criticism is that the Roe Court tried very hard to explain itself and get a very difficult question right, nobody bothered to read the thing in its entirety, the Court probably overdid it in a single couple of cases, and everybody's been talking past each other ever since.

FWIW, I think there's some law review papers I've seen suggesting that "Roe was too much too fast and caused a backlash" is overstated based on relatively muted earlier public reactions (and this is an issue I am somewhat personally sensitive on, because I think there's a real tension between public support for "the rights of Parents to Govern their Kids" and the fact that there are good reasons for courts to be especially solicitous of the wants and needs of minors who likely do not have very much power or control over their lives). And you're right re: Blackmun going into great detail-one thing that his bio I read talks about is actually how much his work as general counsel for the Mayo Clinic informed his career and his opinion in Roe. I do wonder if paradoxically a maximally permissible bright-line rule would have lasted longer, given that it 1) could be more easily framed as "this is is a difficult moral question, and one that the judiciary fundamentally does not have the tools to answer well"(and I think could be framed more clearly in terms of feminist legal theory) and 2) would have been less vulnerable to death by a thousand cuts.
 
Fundamentally tho, and this is me double-posting, I think its' a mistake to separate the emergence of abortion as a culture war issue from the broader backlash against feminism and the "women's lib" movement(which ties into backlash to the emerging LGBTQ rights movement, although this is not something I have real background knowledge of) and any sort of save Roe/keep abortion strictly catholic NE issue probably requires squelching the antifeminist backlash.
 
What if Blackmun had stuck with the first trimester only?

It'd be subject to criticism and probably pushed back to ten weeks as a practical matter, given that most pre-natal testing historically could be as much as two weeks off, but it would be subject to far less criticism.

Something like Roe v. Wade was inevitable. If the Court didn't draw a line, the void-for-vagueness challenges would have meant access to abortion straight-up until the baby pops out (which was the state of the law in some states/districts between Vuitch and Roe). Trimester would just be consistent with what most other advanced-industrial nations went with.

If the Court went with a rebuttable presumption (ergo, the cutoff line as a default matter is first trimester, but if a state does enough pro-woman stuff it can ban abortions earlier) maybe that'd take the wind out of the pro-life movement's sails. If a state is using one definition of life for abortion, but it's letting six week old fetuses count as people for inheritance law purposes, it's arbitrary and dumb to say that the people of a state truly have a compelling interest in such a definition of life.
 
If a state is using one definition of life for abortion, but it's letting six week old fetuses count as people for inheritance law purposes, it's arbitrary and dumb to say that the people of a state truly have a compelling interest in such a definition of life.

Setting aside the Bruenig bullshit, this seems like a pretty specious argument; nobody has any trouble with the idea that it makes sense to define somewhat vague and complicated concepts differently for different purposes-e.g. the issues at stake in inheritance laws (orderly and predictable disposition of estates in a way that respects testator's wishes while disincentivizing chichanery) are very different from medical privacy interests (protect the rights of consenting and knowing adults to make decisions independently about their own health and welfare).
 
Setting aside the Bruenig bullshit, this seems like a pretty specious argument; nobody has any trouble with the idea that it makes sense to define somewhat vague and complicated concepts differently for different purposes-e.g. the issues at stake in inheritance laws (orderly and predictable disposition of estates in a way that respects testator's wishes while disincentivizing chichanery) are very different from medical privacy interests (protect the rights of consenting and knowing adults to make decisions independently about their own health and welfare).

That's the distinction between legitimate for rational basis purposes and compelling for strict scrutiny purposes though. If a state wants to be inconsistent, that seems to be to justify a state's interest being legitimate rather than compelling.

A definition for the purposes of medical privacy (strict scrutiny) seems different than for inheritance (rational basis).

Various early sex discrimination cases were having to do with inheritance laws which failed rational basis review, for what that's worth.
 
That's the distinction between legitimate for rational basis purposes and compelling for strict scrutiny purposes though. If a state wants to be inconsistent, that seems to be to justify a state's interest being legitimate rather than compelling.

A definition for the purposes of medical privacy (strict scrutiny) seems different than for inheritance (rational basis).

Various early sex discrimination cases were having to do with inheritance laws which failed rational basis review, for what that's worth.

Laws almost never are struck down under a rational basis review, though. It's the lowest and most deferential standard of constitutional review.
 
Back
Top