Let's say that Charles de Gaulle dies sometime immediately after the Battle of France, before he has the chance to firmly establish himself as the leader of Free France. Who would lead the Free French forces with him absent? How does this affect the relationship between Free France and the Western Allies during the war, and what would France look like post-war without de Gaulle?
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WI: De Gaulle dies in 1940
- Thread starter Venocara
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Let's say that Charles de Gaulle dies sometime immediately after the Battle of France, before he has the chance to firmly establish himself as the leader of Free France. Who would lead the Free French forces with him absent? How does this affect the relationship between Free France and the Western Allies during the war, and what would France look like post-war without de Gaulle?
In Chasing Shadows, I don't have him killed, he just doesn't get out of France in time. In his absence, the Franco-British Union is more of a thing and there's not really a leader of the Free French. At least officially. De facto Felix Eboue leads the French forces in Africa.
In Chasing Shadows, I don't have him killed, he just doesn't get out of France in time. In his absence, the Franco-British Union is more of a thing and there's not really a leader of the Free French. At least officially. De facto Felix Eboue leads the French forces in Africa.
In a world where the POD is after the failure of the Franco-British Union idea do you think Felix Eboue would still be able to arise as the de facto leader of the Free French, do you think someone else would take his and de Gaulle's place or do you think that there would just be no real leader of the Free French Forces?
I also really like Eboué as an alt-Free French leader, but I don’t know enough about French history to know how realistic him being the leader would be.In Chasing Shadows, I don't have him killed, he just doesn't get out of France in time. In his absence, the Franco-British Union is more of a thing and there's not really a leader of the Free French. At least officially. De facto Felix Eboue leads the French forces in Africa.
Artaxerxes
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I suspect London runs France more closely and they don't manage to integrate the Communists and whichever of the dozen factions a group pledges allegiance to as easily. Especially as Stalin and CDG used each other to squeeze as much as they could out of the British and Americans.
I suspect a fair few more resistance deaths, Africa is interesting but probably not vastly different, and post war France is bloody
I suspect a fair few more resistance deaths, Africa is interesting but probably not vastly different, and post war France is bloody
Ricardolindo
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ChrisNuttall
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Like him or not, CDG was the towering figure of the Free French and later post-war France. If he goes … can his replacement do the same?
In the short term, I don’t see a Franco-British union. It would be seen as a joke, at best; I don’t think there was ever any real appetite for it in either power (Churchill notwithstanding). It might be more likely for the ‘Free French’ units to be more or less completely integrated into the British military as they take shape, even if they are officially treated as forces in exile. The UK would probably find someone to serve as the nominal exiled leader, but with little real clout without CDG’s personality.
In the longer term, assuming the invasion of North Africa and Europe proceeds as OTL, the French might wind up with someone from Vichy (Darlen?) taking the role as de facto leader, probably leading to more recriminations and hastily-rewritten sections of history (“Darlen played Hitler for a fool – he secretly rearmed so secretly it was a secret even from himself – and made sure France was ready to rebel when the time came”) and so on. There would be no clear(ish) break between Vichy and post-war France, probably leading to stronger Communist factions (on the grounds they were fighting the Germans all along – never mind that embarrassing period between the Fall of France and Barbarossa), perhaps even open civil war.
Thoughts?
Chris
In the short term, I don’t see a Franco-British union. It would be seen as a joke, at best; I don’t think there was ever any real appetite for it in either power (Churchill notwithstanding). It might be more likely for the ‘Free French’ units to be more or less completely integrated into the British military as they take shape, even if they are officially treated as forces in exile. The UK would probably find someone to serve as the nominal exiled leader, but with little real clout without CDG’s personality.
In the longer term, assuming the invasion of North Africa and Europe proceeds as OTL, the French might wind up with someone from Vichy (Darlen?) taking the role as de facto leader, probably leading to more recriminations and hastily-rewritten sections of history (“Darlen played Hitler for a fool – he secretly rearmed so secretly it was a secret even from himself – and made sure France was ready to rebel when the time came”) and so on. There would be no clear(ish) break between Vichy and post-war France, probably leading to stronger Communist factions (on the grounds they were fighting the Germans all along – never mind that embarrassing period between the Fall of France and Barbarossa), perhaps even open civil war.
Thoughts?
Chris
Arthur_Phuxache
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It would be interesting if Giraud escaped to Britain and de Gaulle was captured/killed.
How quickly would Giraud be sidelined and the idea of a French government-in-exile be stifled?
How quickly would Giraud be sidelined and the idea of a French government-in-exile be stifled?
Like him or not, CDG was the towering figure of the Free French and later post-war France. If he goes … can his replacement do the same?
In the short term, I don’t see a Franco-British union. It would be seen as a joke, at best; I don’t think there was ever any real appetite for it in either power (Churchill notwithstanding). It might be more likely for the ‘Free French’ units to be more or less completely integrated into the British military as they take shape, even if they are officially treated as forces in exile. The UK would probably find someone to serve as the nominal exiled leader, but with little real clout without CDG’s personality.
In the longer term, assuming the invasion of North Africa and Europe proceeds as OTL, the French might wind up with someone from Vichy (Darlen?) taking the role as de facto leader, probably leading to more recriminations and hastily-rewritten sections of history (“Darlen played Hitler for a fool – he secretly rearmed so secretly it was a secret even from himself – and made sure France was ready to rebel when the time came”) and so on. There would be no clear(ish) break between Vichy and post-war France, probably leading to stronger Communist factions (on the grounds they were fighting the Germans all along – never mind that embarrassing period between the Fall of France and Barbarossa), perhaps even open civil war.
Thoughts?
Chris
I think a Vichy whitewashing attempt is possible but I think it would massively heighten the tensions in cold war France because the left will have a lot of resistance legitimacy and will have none of it. You could get the western allies helping the Vichy whitewash establish itself and crack down on the left, but I'm not sure the cold war mindset needed to do that would be present yet during the liberation.
But it's right that without a strong non leftist Free French figure, the anti Vichy right is likely to not be there strongly enough to contest the right wing space. De Gaulle was important in maintaining the idea that France as an institution never stopped fighting, which allowed claiming Vichy as an occupation regime despite it being entirely homegrown.
You might also get a Free French (Soviet Version) with a bit of legitimacy if there's less unity on who's representing France during the war. Stalin being his usual self is a damper on this though, since it's likely to fall to a sycophant rather than someone with charisma.
I think a Vichy whitewashing attempt is possible but I think it would massively heighten the tensions in cold war France because the left will have a lot of resistance legitimacy and will have none of it.
I don't have the relevant book to hand, but I remember that there was some fear in the US and UK in the late 40s that France will Definitely Go Communist in the elections. That turned out to be a few pessimistic officials greatly overestimating things in our timeline, but in this timeline things might go differently?
I don't have the relevant book to hand, but I remember that there was some fear in the US and UK in the late 40s that France will Definitely Go Communist in the elections. That turned out to be a few pessimistic officials greatly overestimating things in our timeline, but in this timeline things might go differently?
They did win the first election, they just lost the referendum on the constitution they wrote with that win and went downhill from there.
Well to be clear that was a Socialist-Communist alliance, not a Communist majority, but that was before the Socialists really soured on the alliance.
I'll have to recheck book later - that does sound like a succesfully communist or socialist-communist-coalition France is pretty likely with a few changes before '46 like "dead De Gaulle". (And then it'd be about whether it stays successful or there's a civil war with rebel forces driving loaned Sherman tanks)
I'll have to recheck book later - that does sound like a succesfully communist or socialist-communist-coalition France is pretty likely with a few changes before '46 like "dead De Gaulle". (And then it'd be about whether it stays successful or there's a civil war with rebel forces driving loaned Sherman tanks)
Communist majority outright is unlikely outside of a weird scenario where France goes FPTP.
Communist-Socialist is doable. The Radicals were doing very badly and if the right is tarred with Vichy...