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Yokai Man’s Test Thread Thing

Time Enough

European Pollution Police Force
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He/Him
Also dumb if interesting idea for a list, a Romania in a Warsaw Pact that becomes dominated by Titoist style Communists in the mid 60s and in the modern day we have a Communist Two and a Half Democracy in which you chose between essentially EuroCommunists vs. Titoists with the Third Party mainly being a gaggle of Stalinists or Maoists.
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
Oh fuck, is there’s anyway to have a party in Romania that isn’t like, hideous corrupt or batshit crazy?
Yes,but it isn’t gonna successful in the long run,due to how the corrupt and regressive the system is.

Also dumb if interesting idea for a list, a Romania in a Warsaw Pact that becomes dominated by Titoist style Communists in the mid 60s and in the modern day we have a Communist Two and a Half Democracy in which you chose between essentially EuroCommunists vs. Titoists with the Third Party mainly being a gaggle of Stalinists or Maoists.
That’s kinda hard,due to Dej and his cronies making sure that they are always in control and almost each party official creating feudal like dynasties in their counties of origin. See Nicolae and Elena Ceaucescu’s families controlling Dolj even after 1989,more or less acting like feudal lords.

You’d need a scenario where Patrascanu isn’t killed and honestly that isn’t a believable one,since Moscow would have never allowed him in charge due to him being too independent thinking for its liking.

One way or the other you’re gonna end up with a Communist Romania where the brutal party activists control their counties and the head of the party is the worst of the lot,with the whole of society being more feudal than anyone would like to admit.
 

Time Enough

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You’d need a scenario where Patrascanu isn’t killed and honestly that isn’t a believable one,since Moscow would have never allowed him in charge due to him being too independent thinking for its liking.
You could have one where Stalin dies in 1945 and the ensuing Trokia is more bothered with making sure that there new vassal states pay lip service to them than fully dominating them (similar to Finland or something), you would probably have to require a Henry A. Wallace presidency too. This allows for Tito to gain more influence maybe by bumping Dej off or something and Patrascanu gains control or something.
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
You could have one where Stalin dies in 1945 and the ensuing Trokia is more bothered with making sure that there new vassal states pay lip service to them than fully dominating them (similar to Finland or something), you would probably have to require a Henry A. Wallace presidency too. This allows for Tito to gain more influence maybe by bumping Dej off or something and Patrascanu gains control or something.
Ehh,that’s kinda impossible,given Dej’s influence at that point. Besides,Tito didn’t actually care about Romania. He only cared about Yugoslavia.
 

Time Enough

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Ehh,that’s kinda impossible,given Dej’s influence at that point. Besides,Tito didn’t actually care about Romania. He only cared about Yugoslavia.
Hmm, I think Tito would be interested if it means he gets more trading stuff sorted.

What would be the best way for Dej's influence to be dimished?
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
Hmm, I think Tito would be interested if it means he gets more trading stuff sorted.

What would be the best way for Dej's influence to be dimished?
Hard to say. Him dying sometime during the Thirties when he was in jail?

Even then,it would be more likely that either Teohari Georgescu or Ana Pauker get to be in charge. And neither is gonna get chummy with Tito after the inevitable split with Moscow,with Georgescu being as opportunistic as Dej and Pauker beinga hardline Stalinist.
 

Time Enough

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Hard to say. Him dying sometime during the Thirties when he was in jail?

Even then,it would be more likely that either Teohari Georgescu or Ana Pauker get to be in charge. And neither is gonna get chummy with Tito after the inevitable split with Moscow,with Georgescu being as opportunistic as Dej and Pauker beinga hardline Stalinist.
So Romania is fucked to Stalinism or Creasaseu no matter what? Are there any chances of moderates (don’t laugh) or you know leadership more like Hungry to Poland in terms how repressive they are?
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
So Romania is fucked to Stalinism or Creasaseu no matter what? Are there any chances of moderates (don’t laugh) or you know leadership more like Hungry to Poland in terms how repressive they are?
Weeeeelllll,there is a possibility...

Like I mentioned before,one of the biggest PoDs in Romanian history is Ceaucescu not surviving the plane crash he nearly died from in ‘57. Without him,some things changes and others don’t.

OTL,Ceaucescu came to power backed by Bodnăraș and Maurer as a compromise choice in order to make sure that Apostol didn’t become leader (Drăghici also ran,but almost no one supported him and had as much chance of winning as Beria did in ‘53-nada,zilch,no one fucking liked him/wanted him to be in charge). They supported Ceausescu to become general secretary, being convinced that he would accept the principle of collective leadership. Maurer hoped to remain chief foreign policy director,while Bodnaraş thought he would play the role of a venerable counselor. Unfortunately,as is often the case in these situations,they underestimated him greatly.

With him dead in ‘57,someone else will have to be backed by Bodnăraș and Maurer. Hard to say who though. Manescu was hated by Maurer,Chivu Stoica was a complete idiot that only stopped being politically relevant the moment Dej died, Bârlădeanu was too irrelevant at that point (and too Jewish),Borila,Sălăjan and Moghioros were too ill at that point,Voitec was distrusted,considered too much of an intellectual and basically just a puppet,Dumitru Coliu was too much of a Stalinist hardliner for Bodnăraș and Maurer and Leonte Răutu was too Jewish and intellectual.

Thus causing a problem for the duo,since they had a deal that they wouldn’t run against each other and would just back a common candidate. This could more or less cause a stalemate between Bodnăraș,Maurer and Apostol,with each more or less able to win and become Secretary General,abit after a long,drawn out battle.

Again,it’s hard to say who could come out on top.
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
What would be the outcomes if either won, did any of them have any ideas or quirks? Also I could see the Soviet Union just imposing a candidate.
All of them would just impose a slightly more moderate version of Ceaucescu’s National Communism. By ‘65,most in the Romanian Communist Party have gotten sick of being told what to do by Moscow and being viewed by it as their subordinates instead of its equals. Especially after being ignored by the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis and being told nothing,as well as after they rejected the Soviets Valev Plan,a mental plan which proposed that Romania and Bulgaria stopped focusing on industry and instead focused on agriculture and depend on the Soviets technologically.

Romania’s delegation vehemently opposed this,with everyone in the Party being genuinely offended by this and more or less telling Valev to fuck off and the Soviets to stop telling them how to run their country.
 
All of them would just impose a slightly more moderate version of Ceaucescu’s National Communism. By ‘65,most in the Romanian Communist Party have gotten sick of being told what to do by Moscow and being viewed by it as their subordinates instead of its equals. Especially after being ignored by the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis and being told nothing,as well as after they rejected the Soviets Valev Plan,a mental plan which proposed that Romania and Bulgaria stopped focusing on industry and instead focused on agriculture and depend on the Soviets technologically.

Romania’s delegation vehemently opposed this,with everyone in the Party being genuinely offended by this and more or less telling Valev to fuck off and the Soviets to stop telling them how to run their country.
A question: I read a while back an article claiming that there was no real "Valev Plan", merely a proposal by one man which was not taken all that seriously by anyone in the Soviet administration, and that its influence was later exaggerated by people who, for whatever reason, wanted to paint Dej in a better light. What's your opinion this?

Here is the article: https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/inexistenta-unui-plan-valev-in-1964 (if Historia is not reliable or if it is biased, please tell me; I am not aware of it having such a reputation)

I also read an article from 1964 responding to mr. Valev's proposal, reproducing it in full, and it never referred to it as anything but a silly proposal, nevermind a grand plan to turn Romania into a solely agricultural nation. Here it is: http://www.cnsas.ro/documente/istor...atiile economice dintre tarile socialiste.pdf
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
A question: I read a while back an article claiming that there was no real "Valev Plan", merely a proposal by one man which was not taken all that seriously by anyone in the Soviet administration, and that its influence was later exaggerated by people who, for whatever reason, wanted to paint Dej in a better light. What's your opinion this?

Here is the article: https://www.historia.ro/sectiune/general/articol/inexistenta-unui-plan-valev-in-1964 (if Historia is not reliable or if it is biased, please tell me; I am not aware of it having such a reputation)

I also read an article from 1964 responding to mr. Valev's proposal, reproducing it in full, and it never referred to it as anything but a silly proposal, nevermind a grand plan to turn Romania into a solely agricultural nation. Here it is: http://www.cnsas.ro/documente/istoria_comunism/documente_programatice/1964 Relatiile economice dintre tarile socialiste.pdf
Ehh,it’s hard to say actually. Probably just something minor-ish to most people that was the tipping point for the Romanian Communists to finally do their own things and stop listening to Moscow.

It was gonna happen sooner or later. The proposal just accelerated things.
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
The Illusion of Change

1965-1989 Ion Gheorghe Maurer

1989-1996† Nicolae Militaru (National Salvation Front,National Democratic Salvation Front after 1992)

1996-1996 Oliviu Gherman (Intermary President,National Democratic Salvation Front)

1996-2000 Petre Roman (Social Democratic Union)

2000-2009 Adrian Nastase (National Democratic Salvation Front)

2009-2019 Victor Ponta (National Democratic Salvation Front)

2019-present day Nicusor Dan (Independent)
 

Yokai Man

Well-known member
Luck Doesn’t Last Forever

1945-1953 Clement Attlee (Labour Majority)
1945 def:Winston Churchill (Conservative),Archibald Sinclair (Liberal)
1950 def:Winston Churchill (Conservative),Clement Davies (Liberal)
1952 def:Winston Churchill (Conservative),Clement Davies (Liberal)

1953-1957 Hugh Gaitskell (Labour Majority)

1957-1964 Anthony Eden (Conservative Majority)
1957 def:Hugh Gaitskell (Labour),Jo Grimond (Liberal)
1961 def:John Strachey (Labour),Jo Grimond (Liberal)


1964-1966 Selwyn Lloyd (Conservative Majority)

1966-1971 Alfred Robens (Labour Majority)
1966 def:Selwyn Lloyd (Conservative),Jo Grimond (Liberal)


1971-1972 Reginald Maudling (Conservative Majority)
1971 def:Alfred Robens (Labour),Jeremy Thorpe (Liberal)

1972-1976 William Whitelaw (Conservative Majority)

1976-1981 Ted Heath (Labour Majority)
1976 def:William Whitelaw (Conservative),William Wolfe (SNP),David Steel-replacing Jeremy Thorpe (Liberal),John Tyndall (National Front)

1981-1985† Keith Joseph (Conservative Majority,Conservative Minority by 1985)
1981 def:Ted Heath (Labour), William Wolfe (SNP),Michael Foot (Liberal),John Tyndall (National Front)

1985-1990 Margaret Thatcher (Conservative Minority,Conservative Majority after the 1985 General Election,Conservative-Ulster Unionist Coalition after 1989)
1985 def:Peter Shore (Labour),Gordon Wilson (SNP),Roy Jenkins (SDP),Michael Foot (Liberal),John Tyndall (Official National Front),Andrew Brons (Flag Group)
1989 def:John Smith (Labour),Shirley Williams/David Penhaligon (Democrats/Liberal Alliance),Gordon Wilson (SNP),David Owen (SDP)

1990-1994 John Moore (Conservative-Ulster Unionist Coalition,Conservative-Ulster Unionist-SDP Coalition after 1993)

1994-1997 John Smith (Labour Majority)
1994 def:John Moore (Conservative),David Penhaligon (SLP),Alec Salmond (SNP)
1995 Scottish Assembly Referendum:79% Yes
1995 Welsh Assembly Referendum:52% No

Contenders in the 1997 Labour Leadership Race:
*Gordon Brown,Chancellor of the Exchequer
*Cecil Parkinson,Home Secretary
*Robin Cook,Foreign Secretary

*Paddy Ashdown,Defence Secretary
 
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