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Sudan instead of Iraq

Sudan hasn't been weakened over a decade of sanctions and a previous war, and there's not many US allies who'd let the army ship in. (It'd really just be Egypt) Bush would also have just spent a year of planning and arguing and pressuring for the invasion of Iraq, which on the one hand I guess he's prepared for a invasion but OTOH this is a different country, with different logistical issues. He'd have to work at getting other countries to be onboard for this, after expending political capital over Iraq.

Some sort of military action, air strikes and the like, maybe, but a full-on invasion seems extremely unlikely even if Bush really wanted to do it.
 
Sudan hasn't been weakened over a decade of sanctions and a previous war, and there's not many US allies who'd let the army ship in. (It'd really just be Egypt) Bush would also have just spent a year of planning and arguing and pressuring for the invasion of Iraq, which on the one hand I guess he's prepared for a invasion but OTOH this is a different country, with different logistical issues. He'd have to work at getting other countries to be onboard for this, after expending political capital over Iraq.

Some sort of military action, air strikes and the like, maybe, but a full-on invasion seems extremely unlikely even if Bush really wanted to do it.

Say Bush never even thinks of invading Iraq in this timeline.
Regardless, Ethiopia, Chad and Eritrea could also participate in the invasion. All those countries had problems with Sudan. There's also the possibility of an amphibious landing in Port Sudan. In addition, the Sudanese military was much weaker than the Iraqi military.
 
I forgot Uganda. It was in a proxy conflict with Sudan at the time.

I think a congo war scenario where Sudan's neighbours invade during the darfur genocide is perfectly possible, they all supported various rebels.

I think a scenario where they work together and it doesn't immediately devolve into chaos and ertirean and ethiopian armies fighting each other in Sudan is entirely ASB.
 
Say Bush never even thinks of invading Iraq in this timeline.

That is ASB too. Iraq, with its giant pile of oil, location, past conflict, and army that, even after the clobbering and sanctions, remained one of the strongest in the region, would be a legitimate concern and subject of focus for any administration of the time, whatever their other politics, in a way that much weaker, much poorer, out-of-the-way Sudan simply wouldn't be.
 
That is ASB too. Iraq, with its giant pile of oil, location, past conflict, and army that, even after the clobbering and sanctions, remained one of the strongest in the region, would be a legitimate concern and subject of focus for any administration of the time, whatever their other politics, in a way that much weaker, much poorer, out-of-the-way Sudan simply wouldn't be.

Thing is, Sudan had hosted al-Qaeda in the 90s.
 
This isn't going to happen under Bush because the Republican foreign policy and national security nexus had spent the nineties obsessing about 'finishing the job' on Iraq, to the point that members of the administration were already talking about invading Iraq only hours after the 9/11 attacks had begun. Iraq wasn't just 'somewhere we can invade for fun' it was somewhere with an enormous beltway and public opinion animus invested in it going back a decade. Sudan is not remotely equivalent to that.

The way to make this happen is to have Sudan harbouring bin-Laden at the time of the attacks, not as a follow-up invasion. You need to go back into the nineties and Sudanese internal issues to make that happen though. I don't know how that would play out but presumably the first rule would be don't get all the fucking neighbours involved and occupying territory they'll have to be paid off for later.
 
This isn't going to happen under Bush because the Republican foreign policy and national security nexus had spent the nineties obsessing about 'finishing the job' on Iraq, to the point that members of the administration were already talking about invading Iraq only hours after the 9/11 attacks had begun. Iraq wasn't just 'somewhere we can invade for fun' it was somewhere with an enormous beltway and public opinion animus invested in it going back a decade. Sudan is not remotely equivalent to that.

The way to make this happen is to have Sudan harbouring bin-Laden at the time of the attacks, not as a follow-up invasion. You need to go back into the nineties and Sudanese internal issues to make that happen though. I don't know how that would play out but presumably the first rule would be don't get all the fucking neighbours involved and occupying territory they'll have to be paid off for later.

Thing is, as my alternatehistory.com thread showed, Bush did want to invade Sudan.
 
Thing is, as my alternatehistory.com thread showed, Bush did want to invade Sudan.

Then write the story where it does happen. Write the story where, due to (even more) understaffing, the Americans try to rely on neighbors/locals for much of the ground forces like you're suggesting, with obviously less than ideal results. Do the nuts and bolts research, and even if you have to embellish/handwave some things (it's okay to do that for the sake of a story as long as the end result is well-written), show the deployments and likely results.

Don't just say "well, make this square peg fit into a round hole", because that's what you're trying to do. You can't just swap countries with very different backgrounds, capabilities, politics, and geography on a whim and expect it to work.
 
Thing is, Sudan had hosted al-Qaeda in the 90s.

Yeah, I mean Sudan's pretty awful. One of my friends lectures and writes on Sudanese politics and heads out there occasionally, she actually had arranged to interview Bashir but a pandemic happened, so I'm under no illusion about the US having motives for this.

It was massively unpopular, it committed war crimes, int destabilised it's neighbours, it harboured Islamic terrorists. The USA bombed it for a reason, and I believe entirely that Bush considered an invasion. It's the practicalities that I think get in the way.

Like Bush ultimately decided against it and I suspect that's due to the Iraq problem. If it's post Iraq, the army is overstretched and interventionism is discredited, if it's pre Iraq, Iraq is right there so why is Bush hitting someone else when so much of the US institution was building up to a war with Hussein.

Possibly if you remove Blair and/or Cheney you can stop the build up against Iraq long enough for Sudan to become the focus. I think @Ciclavex has said before that we underestimate the role Blair had in that and that without him Bush might not have taken that step.

You could also I suppose have USA reduced to bombing and it being the rebels and neighbouring countries who actually do the fighting which would require less investment but again the coherence of the anti sudanese forces makes Afghanistan look like a cake walk.

I think there is a decent timeline to be had wherein Bush avoids the Iraq beartrap and walks into one in Africa instead. Also I though bashir was less of a leper to the other arab states than Hussein which will have consequences.
 
Thing is, as my alternatehistory.com thread showed, Bush did want to invade Sudan.

You didn't actually source that, you just stated it.

Not that it matters anyway even if we take Bush's desire to do that as a given, because Bush was a highly advisor-reliant president in foreign affairs, which is precisely what your 'Condi advised him against' it notion shows. They're not going to drop Iraq to do it and fighting three ground occupations in three different countries is too much madness even for that administration.

As I said the most direct way to get America into the Sudan is to have the government there keep hosting bin-Laden.
 
Possibly if you remove Blair and/or Cheney you can stop the build up against Iraq long enough for Sudan to become the focus. I think @Ciclavex has said before that we underestimate the role Blair had in that and that without him Bush might not have taken that step.

To some degree, yes, though even without Blair I think an Iraq invasion is downright likely -- the main point of my Blair discussion is more to rubbish the idea that Blair was "Bush's poodle" or "America's lapdog" as he is often portrayed in this instance, because he was enthusiastically in favor of an invasion of Iraq during the Clinton Administration to the point of irritation for the White House. Bush has a major personal animus involved with Iraq -- Hussein literally tried to have Bush's father assassinated. Combine that with the bipartisan support for an invasion of Iraq that dated back into the '90s -- bipartisan support that Clinton and his administration had to actively resist in the last years of his administration, along with international pressure from Downing Street. Further combine that with the set of advisors that Bush chose... it's really incredibly unlikely that Bush gets distracted from Iraq to go after Sudan or any other country. The only thing I think that averts Bush from war with Iraq following his election in 2001 is if Afghanistan goes more poorly earlier, or, perhaps, he listens to his military advisors rather than his political advisors (as his administration silenced and removed senior military officers who sounded the alarm about the likely post-invasion problems), and decides to focus in on Afghanistan rather than adding the Iraq intervention back on the agenda.

I genuinely don't see any way for anything to push Iraq off the agenda once the Bush Administration has decided it's ready for another full-on war after 9/11 and the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan. The only way I see a Sudan War happening is in addition to Iraq, with the Bush Administration extending U.S. forces even further than they did IOTL (with all the attendant problems that will cause) -- and, even then, I don't see Sudan as being likely to be third on the list, or if Bin Laden is being harbored by Sudan after 9/11, and thus Sudan replaces Afghanistan.
 
Thought: if this did happen because something something oranges something, is this an invasion and occupation of the whole of Sudan, or would it have to be an occupation of Darfur and bombarding parts of Sudan to secure it?
 
Then write the story where it does happen. Write the story where, due to (even more) understaffing, the Americans try to rely on neighbors/locals for much of the ground forces like you're suggesting, with obviously less than ideal results. Do the nuts and bolts research, and even if you have to embellish/handwave some things (it's okay to do that for the sake of a story as long as the end result is well-written), show the deployments and likely results.

Don't just say "well, make this square peg fit into a round hole", because that's what you're trying to do. You can't just swap countries with very different backgrounds, capabilities, politics, and geography on a whim and expect it to work.

Thing is, unlike with Iraq, the US have friendly relationships with neighboring countries that could participate in the invasion.
 
You didn't actually source that, you just stated it.

Not that it matters anyway even if we take Bush's desire to do that as a given, because Bush was a highly advisor-reliant president in foreign affairs, which is precisely what your 'Condi advised him against' it notion shows. They're not going to drop Iraq to do it and fighting three ground occupations in three different countries is too much madness even for that administration.

As I said the most direct way to get America into the Sudan is to have the government there keep hosting bin-Laden.

That's why my scenario is "Sudan instead of Iraq". I know that both couldn't be invaded at the same time.
 
Thought: if this did happen because something something oranges something, is this an invasion and occupation of the whole of Sudan, or would it have to be an occupation of Darfur and bombarding parts of Sudan to secure it?

If the aim is to stop the atrocities, which was what Bush is alleged to have wanted to do, you need to have troops all over the country. At that point, you might as well go for Khartoum.

If it's just to go for bin laden, then same. There's no reason to invade and then not change the regime.
 
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