Pagan WRE, Christian ERE

[Ricardolindo]

Is there any way the Eastern Roman Empire could have become Christian while the Western Roman Empire remained pagan? Christianity was far more present in the former than in the later. If so, what would have been the effects?

 

[ShortsBelfast]

Is there any way the Eastern Roman Empire could have become Christian while the Western Roman Empire remained pagan? Christianity was far more present in the former than in the later. If so, what would have been the effects?

Paganism was essentially on its way out. The Pagans themselves were starting down the road of the Twelve being facets or aspects (something like the Sephiroth of the Kabbala) of one God. If it hadn't been Christianity, then some form of Zoroasterianism, Manicheanism, a non-mystery adaption of Mithraism or Islam a century or two later. Paganism doesn't work terribly well in a society with a reasonable level of scientific understanding (which was the case post Aristotle, Galen and Pliny the Elder). You can quite happily have a sea god and a moon goddess up until the point where someone works out that the tides are influenced by the moon.

 

[Cydonius]

Paganism was essentially on its way out. The Pagans themselves were starting down the road of the Twelve being facets or aspects (something like the Sephiroth of the Kabbala) of one God. If it hadn't been Christianity, then some form of Zoroasterianism, Manicheanism, a non-mystery adaption of Mithraism or Islam a century or two later. Paganism doesn't work terribly well in a society with a reasonable level of scientific understanding (which was the case post Aristotle, Galen and Pliny the Elder). You can quite happily have a sea god and a moon goddess up until the point where someone works out that the tides are influenced by the moon.

Personally I wouldn't characterise scientific understanding as necessarily antithetical to a polytheistic religion, just look at India. Scientific understanding was already quite well developed in India, yet Hinduism remains predominant even now. Although from what I understand of Hinduism from friends who practise it, what might look like a truly polytheistic dogma on the outside is rather one where all named gods are facets of a single supreme spirit. Which then supports your thesis!

But in a European context, I'd agree totally that the trend was towards henotheism/monotheism. Even at the start of the imperial period, Romans often referred to Jupiter as Iupiter Optimus Maximus, 'Jupiter the Best and Greatest', I could easily see the Roman state religion going further down this henotheistic path, initially focusing solely on the Capitoline Triad of Jupiter, Juno and Minerva and possibly becoming monotheistic over time. Had the Roman state religion gone down this path and survived to the present day, I'd bet good money that it would look very similar to Roman Catholicism, at least until the changes of the last century or so. Uncomfortably similar, if you're a Roman Catholic.

I personally think Mithraism had a good chance of taking the same path that Christianity took OTL - it seems to have been popular among the military and it's obvious how intertwined the Roman military was with the position of Emperor for much of its existence. Rome also seems to have been the centre of Mithraism, quite possibly even the place it was created. So I think it's entirely plausible that Mithraism could evolve from a mystery cult to a full-blown state religion. I'd be interested to see what that looked like, but given how little we actually know about the details of Mithraism I think it would be very difficult to speculate.

Further down the line, if the ex-Western Roman Empire had never christianised, but still had a religion with Rome as its central religious city, then where do you start with all the knock-on changes? No crusades, certainly. If Islam was still founded in the same way with the same dogma, and still expanded in the same way, would the TTL western religion have led a reconquista against them in Iberia? Would the TTL Byzantine state have fallen more quickly to the Turks, or more slowly without western Crusaders looting them on their way through? The word 'crusade' wouldn't even exist, nor would 'excruciating', they both ultimately derive from the Latin word for 'cross' thanks to the Christian connotations of the word. I guess you might get a Patriarch calling for a 'stavroforia' instead?

Then what about potential reformations and religious wars? The wars between protestants and catholics were hugely devastating to parts of Europe and came at a horrific cost in human lives, both directly from the fighting but also from the resulting poverty.

I reckon you could spend a whole academic career exploring the potential changes and still not run out of things to write about.

 

[ShortsBelfast]

Personally I wouldn't characterise scientific understanding as necessarily antithetical to a polytheistic religion, just look at India. Scientific understanding was already quite well developed in India, yet Hinduism remains predominant even now. Although from what I understand of Hinduism from friends who practise it, what might look like a truly polytheistic dogma on the outside is rather one where all named gods are facets of a single supreme spirit. Which then supports your thesis!

But in a European context, I'd agree totally that the trend was towards henotheism/monotheism. Even at the start of the imperial period, Romans often referred to Jupiter as Iupiter Optimus Maximus, 'Jupiter the Best and Greatest', I could easily see the Roman state religion going further down this henotheistic path, initially focusing solely on the Capitoline Triad of Jupiter, Juno and Minerva and possibly becoming monotheistic over time. Had the Roman state religion gone down this path and survived to the present day, I'd bet good money that it would look very similar to Roman Catholicism, at least until the changes of the last century or so. Uncomfortably similar, if you're a Roman Catholic.

I personally think Mithraism had a good chance of taking the same path that Christianity took OTL - it seems to have been popular among the military and it's obvious how intertwined the Roman military was with the position of Emperor for much of its existence. Rome also seems to have been the centre of Mithraism, quite possibly even the place it was created. So I think it's entirely plausible that Mithraism could evolve from a mystery cult to a full-blown state religion. I'd be interested to see what that looked like, but given how little we actually know about the details of Mithraism I think it would be very difficult to speculate.

Further down the line, if the ex-Western Roman Empire had never christianised, but still had a religion with Rome as its central religious city, then where do you start with all the knock-on changes? No crusades, certainly. If Islam was still founded in the same way with the same dogma, and still expanded in the same way, would the TTL western religion have led a reconquista against them in Iberia? Would the TTL Byzantine state have fallen more quickly to the Turks, or more slowly without western Crusaders looting them on their way through? The word 'crusade' wouldn't even exist, nor would 'excruciating', they both ultimately derive from the Latin word for 'cross' thanks to the Christian connotations of the word. I guess you might get a Patriarch calling for a 'stavroforia' instead?

Then what about potential reformations and religious wars? The wars between protestants and catholics were hugely devastating to parts of Europe and came at a horrific cost in human lives, both directly from the fighting but also from the resulting poverty.

I reckon you could spend a whole academic career exploring the potential changes and still not run out of things to write about.

Hinduism is as you say only arguably polytheistic, all its gods are emanations of a sole Divine and the universe is but the dream of the Supreme Creator.
Chinese Polytheism also rather sidesteps the issue with the Celestial Personage in Jade being very much the supreme God and all junior gods having very specifically assigned roles and duties in a Celestial bureaucracy.

 

[Elektronaut]

The notion that Christianity is more 'scientific' than paganism and this is why it won out is both obviously ridiculous and ignores literally centuries of pagan inquiry. Greek polytheism was actually less superstitious than Christianity in some ways, I.E diminution of the notion of afterlife.

That said Mithraism and the mystery cults have absolutely no chance whatsoever, because of how exclusive and elitist they were. Christianity won out because it was both disciplined and tightly-knit while simultaneously being very open, non-misogyinistic by the standards of the time, and very community and socially-engaged.

A lot of this social aspect was traditional to polis based community worship though, and if Christianity hadn't been a universal phenomenon replicating it then it would have continued.

I don't think there's any chance at all of Christianity flourishing in the west and not the east because that's geographically ASB and real life isn't Rome Total War: Barbarian Invasion. An originally Jewish movement is always going to have its principal original growth in the eastern med.

 

[Gary Oswald]

I don't think there's any chance at all of Christianity flourishing in the west and not the east because that's geographically ASB and real life isn't Rome Total War: Barbarian Invasion. An originally Jewish movement is always going to have its principal original growth in the eastern med.

The question was the other way around. Italy and the western empire did have a much stronger pagan aristocracy even into the 5th century and if the empire is divided entirely, I don't think it's impossible for the Christian movement to make slower inroads into the West. Though how long they can fend them off is rather more questionable.

 

[Elektronaut]

The question was the other way around. Italy and the western empire did have a much stronger pagan aristocracy even into the 5th century and if the empire is divided entirely, I don't think it's impossible for the Christian movement to make slower inroads into the West. Though how long they can fend them off is rather more questionable.

Yeah I see. Sorry, I've had sinus troubles these last few days.

Yeah, the original question is basically just OTL geographically. If you split the empire on a stable east west basis earlier than OTL it's also totally plausible that it becomes a political reality at some point with toleration leading to acceptance in the east which isn't mirrored in the west.

 

[Indicus]

One question I always have with these sorts of scenarios is, how do you define “pagan”? It seems the term has a million different meanings, each different from any other. And that’s not even getting into the long use of the term to mean “religion I don’t like”.

 

[Ricardolindo]

The question was the other way around. Italy and the western empire did have a much stronger pagan aristocracy even into the 5th century and if the empire is divided entirely, I don't think it's impossible for the Christian movement to make slower inroads into the West. Though how long they can fend them off is rather more questionable.

In addition, Christianity was fairly absent in the West before the 4th century, except for a few cities like Rome and Carthage.

 

[Gary Oswald]

In addition, Christianity was fairly absent in the West before the 4th century, except for a few cities like Rome and Carthage.

Yeah, I think if theres an earlier permanent split which keeps the west together as a working state (easier said than done) its doable enough in the short term. Long term, we have a lot of precedents as to what happens when theres a big monotheistic empire next door to a polytheistic one and it only really goes one way.

 

[Elektronaut]

Incidentally, while Mithraism is baldly described as popular by historians, I think that's well worth putting in context based on what we know. The fact that it was so socially exclusive, the fact that seemingly hardly anyone progressed beyond the first level of initiation, the fact we barely know what the hell it was even about, the fact it was monumentally popular in Rome itself, the fact it went into a nosedive once imperial support was cut - it all suggests it was more like the Masons than an actual religion - an elite networking society.

 

[Death's Companion]

Incidentally, while Mithraism is baldly described as popular by historians, I think that's well worth putting in context based on what we know. The fact that it was so socially exclusive, the fact that seemingly hardly anyone progressed beyond the first level of initiation, the fact we barely know what the hell it was even about, the fact it was monumentally popular in Rome itself, the fact it went into a nosedive once imperial support was cut - it all suggests it was more like the Masons than an actual religion - an elite networking society.

That's all Roman religion really.

The reasons for paganism dying out in the West are usually put down to traditional Roman religion being a way for the rich to show off and the sons of the powerful to build a public profile as they step up the lather. It was all ritualised and empty and plenty of what we would call atheists held positions without this being an issue. That's not to say no one believes in it or the Imperial Cult was not a big deal but ultimately it was very elite based and exclusionary whilst it's happiness or just adopt whatever was popular locally conversely made it easier in turn to be coopted.

 

[heraclius]

There's a lot of difference between rural cults of local Nature spirits in the outer provinces of the West, whose gods were usually equated with the nearest parallel Greco-Roman 'Olympian' god available, and the elite cults of the Olympians and the local Italian 'household god' deities in Rome itself. As said, the latter (especially the cults in Rome itself) were run by and for the Roman upper classes and often had hereditary priests, with no sort of idealistic 'saviour god for all mankind' but rather an annual ritual of festivals and sacrifices that provided a focus for social lives and prestige for the participants and was seen by them and the public as guaranteeing 'good luck' for and the gods' support for the State. The local cults in the countryside across the West were part of the overall rural world-view by the public of a plethora of 'Nature' deities (eg the protecting spirits of the streams and woods) who needed to be appeased to ensure good weather and a good harvest. These had a lot of vigour and local support left well into the C4th , including from the rich who built large new shrines a late as c 360 - eg that of the local British Nature god Nodens at Lydney near Gloucester in the west of Britain. (The local presiding Nature goddess of the sacred hot springs at Bath, Sul, had been renamed 'Sulis Minerva' as she was equated with the Roman goddess Minerva, and the extant Romano-British shrine of 'Sulis Minerva' at Bath was built on that basis.) 'Pagan', indeed, comes from the Latin word 'pagus' for countryside, and was probably first chosen as a form of insult - this was an old-fashioned, unsophisticated and rural religion as seen by the aggressive C4th and C5th Christians, only fit for peasants.


There was also probably in Britain some sense of an overall pantheon of gods as in the Germanic world, related to the equivalent Gaelic pantheon in Ireland; we do not now a great deal about this and all written evidence is much later,emerging in the legends and poetry of post-Roman 'Celtic' (not a contemporary term) and then 'Welsh'culture , but some parallels existed between British/ Welsh and Irish gods. The overall picture is more of a cultural development and belief in a parallel 'World of the Spirits' with their own body of interacting, often feuding heroic gods and goddesses who might at times get involved with human affairs and needed to be kept happy by sacrifices and being honoured but did not have any sort of over-arching scheme for the redemption of their believers and the punishment of the wicked. This was parallel to the Greek mythological world - and it has echoes of the concept of the spirit world and the local Nature spirits in the Japanese culture.

I can see a surviving Roman 'pagan' world view and mythology plus a regular round of feasts and sacrifices run by important families continuing for a while in the West if , say, a longer-lived and successful Julian had propped it up with state money and patronage. It could end up as a sort of equivalent of Shinto in Japan. But as it lacked an overall appeal of 'redemption' or a new and exciting higher status for the 'left behinds' (eg women and the lower classes) in an unequal and increasingly fragmented world it would have difficulties in combating the appeal and the
sheer organization and numbers of determined personnel involved in the Church. The Neoplatonist appeal was to the better educated as it was far too complex to have popular appeal and was 'unfocussed' and short on definitive rules and fixed theology too. And was Mithraism, which had a saviour god and an appealing mythology plus secret societies organising conversions, too linked to the army and too 'Persian' and unadaptable?

 

[Roger II]

There's a lot of difference between rural cults of local Nature spirits in the outer provinces of the West, whose gods were usually equated with the nearest parallel Greco-Roman 'Olympian' god available, and the elite cults of the Olympians and the local Italian 'household god' deities in Rome itself. As said, the latter (especially the cults in Rome itself) were run by and for the Roman upper classes and often had hereditary priests, with no sort of idealistic 'saviour god for all mankind' but rather an annual ritual of festivals and sacrifices that provided a focus for social lives and prestige for the participants and was seen by them and the public as guaranteeing 'good luck' for and the gods' support for the State. The local cults in the countryside across the West were part of the overall rural world-view by the public of a plethora of 'Nature' deities (eg the protecting spirits of the streams and woods) who needed to be appeased to ensure good weather and a good harvest. These had a lot of vigour and local support left well into the C4th , including from the rich who built large new shrines a late as c 360 - eg that of the local British Nature god Nodens at Lydney near Gloucester in the west of Britain. (The local presiding Nature goddess of the sacred hot springs at Bath, Sul, had been renamed 'Sulis Minerva' as she was equated with the Roman goddess Minerva, and the extant Romano-British shrine of 'Sulis Minerva' at Bath was built on that basis.) 'Pagan', indeed, comes from the Latin word 'pagus' for countryside, and was probably first chosen as a form of insult - this was an old-fashioned, unsophisticated and rural religion as seen by the aggressive C4th and C5th Christians, only fit for peasants.


There was also probably in Britain some sense of an overall pantheon of gods as in the Germanic world, related to the equivalent Gaelic pantheon in Ireland; we do not now a great deal about this and all written evidence is much later,emerging in the legends and poetry of post-Roman 'Celtic' (not a contemporary term) and then 'Welsh'culture , but some parallels existed between British/ Welsh and Irish gods. The overall picture is more of a cultural development and belief in a parallel 'World of the Spirits' with their own body of interacting, often feuding heroic gods and goddesses who might at times get involved with human affairs and needed to be kept happy by sacrifices and being honoured but did not have any sort of over-arching scheme for the redemption of their believers and the punishment of the wicked. This was parallel to the Greek mythological world - and it has echoes of the concept of the spirit world and the local Nature spirits in the Japanese culture.

I can see a surviving Roman 'pagan' world view and mythology plus a regular round of feasts and sacrifices run by important families continuing for a while in the West if , say, a longer-lived and successful Julian had propped it up with state money and patronage. It could end up as a sort of equivalent of Shinto in Japan. But as it lacked an overall appeal of 'redemption' or a new and exciting higher status for the 'left behinds' (eg women and the lower classes) in an unequal and increasingly fragmented world it would have difficulties in combating the appeal and the
sheer organization and numbers of determined personnel involved in the Church. The Neoplatonist appeal was to the better educated as it was far too complex to have popular appeal and was 'unfocussed' and short on definitive rules and fixed theology too. And was Mithraism, which had a saviour god and an appealing mythology plus secret societies organising conversions, too linked to the army and too 'Persian' and unadaptable?

I mean, one other option would be a salvationist or quasi-monotheistic religion that doesn't view itself as incompatible with either imperial or local cults, which as you somewhat hint at happened in China and Japan. Or a sort of "Latin Bhakti" movement, which would probably require some kind of competition.

 

[Elektronaut]

I mean, one other option would be a salvationist or quasi-monotheistic religion that doesn't view itself as incompatible with either imperial or local cults, which as you somewhat hint at happened in China and Japan. Or a sort of "Latin Bhakti" movement, which would probably require some kind of competition.

Paganism, both philosophically and religiously, was quasi-monotheistic. From Aristotle's unmoved mover to the Stoic supreme rational principle, just about all Pagan philosophy stressed a single cosmic force. Religiously it was also very common to view gods as facets of a single source, interlinked, and the gods were routinely refered to as a corporate body. There isn't a hard seperation between Christian monotheism and this - as a lot of Pagans said at the time, we're just worshipping the same thing under different labels, what's the fuss about? And if anything Christianity merged itself into Pagan philosophy over time.

People in AH need to stop applying Civilisation tech tree logic to this issue when it comes up. Christianity wasn't more rational or truthful or inevitable. What it was as I said earlier, was popular, socially-focused, open, disciplined, universalist and relatively democratic in its ethos.

 

[Artaxerxes]

One thing I remember musing about a long while was the similarities between East and Western tribes on the edge of the Empire, a proto-Goth or similar group having a similar reaction to the tribes of the Middle East and forming a Western Empire fusion of weird Pagan and Christian empires and becoming an Islam of the North. I.e. its own distinct religion that cherry picks elements of its theology from a broad circle and forms something new and rather energetic.

 

[Gary Oswald]

I think @Jared said he was interested in writing a story about a declining Byzantine Empire which had traditionally acted as a shield between the lands of Christendom (North Africa and the Middle East) and the pagan barbarians of Europe and the Christian reactions to its fall. It is one of the curiosities of history the way the Muslim conquests completely shifted the centre of Christianity.

 

[Jared]

I think @Jared said he was interested in writing a story about a declining Byzantine Empire which had traditionally acted as a shield between the lands of Christendom (North Africa and the Middle East) and the pagan barbarians of Europe and the Christian reactions to its fall. It is one of the curiosities of history the way the Muslim conquests completely shifted the centre of Christianity.

Yes, that is one of my longer term ideas, although it has been shoved on the back burner indefinitely due to other projects. The basic idea was that a different religion arose in Europe out of paganism which was then held back by the *Byzantines.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Yeah, I think if theres an earlier permanent split which keeps the west together as a working state (easier said than done) its doable enough in the short term. Long term, we have a lot of precedents as to what happens when theres a big monotheistic empire next door to a polytheistic one and it only really goes one way.

Off the top of my head, I don't actually recall that many instances of monotheistic empires bordering polytheistic ones.
Regardless, I'm not sure we need the West to remain united for very long. Its successor states would presumably also be pagan. I doubt the Germanic invaders would convert to Christianity without the Western Roman Empire already being Christian.
Regardless, here's an idea for how such a split may come about, which is inspired on https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-pagan-ere-christian-wre.457325/post-18002951 though I think the 1st century is too early for such:
A charismatic pagan leader panders to the old Roman fears of Eastern cults, a civil war breaks out and the empire splits between a Latino-Punic Pagan West and a Greco-Egyptian Christian East. What do you think of that?

 

[Ricardolindo]

Off the top of my head, I don't actually recall that many instances of monotheistic empires bordering polytheistic ones.
Regardless, I'm not sure we need the West to remain united for very long. Its successor states would presumably also be pagan. I doubt the Germanic invaders would convert to Christianity without the Western Roman Empire already being Christian.
Regardless, here's an idea for how such a split may come about, which is inspired on https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-pagan-ere-christian-wre.457325/post-18002951 though I think the 1st century is too early for such:
A charismatic pagan leader panders to the old Roman fears of Eastern cults, a civil war breaks out and the empire splits between a Latino-Punic Pagan West and a Greco-Egyptian Christian East. What do you think of that?

So, does anyone have any thoughts on this?