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Orthodox Finns and Balts

Ricardolindo

Well-known member
Location
Portugal
Suppose the Russian principalities were more successful than in our timeline and beat the Northern Crusaders to convert the Finns and, at least, most Balts.
First, how many Balts could they convert? Are the Lithuanians the westernmost limit or could they convert the Prussians, too?
Second, how would Finns and, at least, most Balts being Orthodox impact them? Would they be more Russified?
 
They probably will be more Russified, yes. Their languages will be written in Cyrillic and their would be more Russian loanwords, though I suppose the big question is whether they get Russified enough that they see themselves as Russians themselves or if they still maintain a distinct ethnic identity from Russians.
 
As if anything, though, just because they convert to Eastern Orthodox Christianity does not necessarily mean that they follow the same path as the Russians. For Finland in particular, it's certainly even possible that the Protestant Reformation would have more of a direct impact than elsewhere in the Orthodox world, with some very interesting possibilities (a possible analogue to Anglicanism on the Baltic Sea, perhaps?).
 
As if anything, though, just because they convert to Eastern Orthodox Christianity does not necessarily mean that they follow the same path as the Russians. For Finland in particular, it's certainly even possible that the Protestant Reformation would have more of a direct impact than elsewhere in the Orthodox world, with some very interesting possibilities (a possible analogue to Anglicanism on the Baltic Sea, perhaps?).

A resurgence of Iconoclasm as Calvinism spreads north?
 
A resurgence of Iconoclasm as Calvinism spreads north?

:ROFLMAO:

Well, I was largely thinking of Anglicanism only as the idea of a separate national Orthodox church that conserves traditions from the past, with Lutheranism as a main potential model of theological influence (one of these days, if I want to do an Orthodoxy in Finland TL, I'd have it so the main Finnish Orthodox Church keeps many of the trappings of Russian Orthodoxy to a level familiar to Old Believers, but with the main difference being that it's an arm of the Church of Sweden that just happens to use Church Slavonic and local languages instead of Swedish and Latin). However, considering some of the folk movements within Russian Orthodox Christianity which even before the schism were pretty anti-clerical to begin with, I could see a possibility.

To get an Anglican analogue for Orthodoxy in Finland that early, one would need a good reason to break off from the main Christian church. England (and Wales) had Henry VIII's quest for a divorce; Finland's Orthodox Christians could side with the Old Believers (OrthodoxWiki link for those unfamiliar with them). In both cases, both immediately started out by trying to maintain Church life and practice as it existed before the split. Then we can get somewhere with reforms.

Now, in much of northern Europe, Luther's reforms were the main vehicle for the Reformation, so that would be a major source of influence on the direction of Eastern Orthodoxy in Finland. Most Orthodox Finns in that case would be what could be called proto-High Church Lutherans in Eastern Orthodox garb. But note that the Old Believers, at least in Russia, comprised of two distinct groups - the поповцы who tried to maintain the full spectrum of Orthodoxy as it existed, and the безпоповцы who rejected all that (so no priests, no sacraments except Baptism, and a few other things). If there is a Calvinist influence (and, for that matter, the Pietism movement within Lutheranism) on Finnish Orthodoxy that becomes doctrine, then it could be from the influence of the безпоповцы if they are the victors of the Finnish Reformation. And in that case, yes I could see some revival of iconoclasm as a rejection of the Nikonian reforms - the Old Believers require that icons have to be made in a certain way, so it could be possible that some among the безпоповцы would find even some of them being tainted in some way. Though, if you're going to have an attack on the icons, you also would need to have people desecrating consecrated hosts and destroying tabernacles, chalices, and all that (but not baptismal fonts!) due to rejection of the Eucharist. So you'd have a split within Finnish Orthodoxy between its own поповцы (split between those who accept the general teachings of Lutheranism, which would be the majority, and those who don't, who would be in the minority) and the Calvinistic безпоповцы. The new Finnish Orthodox Church that would result (reflecting its own version of the Elizabethan Settlement) would be one that would try to accommodate the two extremes - and with an ever-present threat from Muscovy > Russia, not just in religious matters, it would be very likely that this form of the Elizabethan Settlement would be more widely accepted in Finland than in England, lowering the potential for further religious strife.
 
They probably will be more Russified, yes. Their languages will be written in Cyrillic and their would be more Russian loanwords, though I suppose the big question is whether they get Russified enough that they see themselves as Russians themselves or if they still maintain a distinct ethnic identity from Russians.

This is when things get absolutely interesting. :) At this time, we're not talking about Russian per sé, but more likely Old East Slavic. (Whether or not there's also a parallel influence from Old Novgorodian would also be worth exploring.[/url]) Old East Slavic and Old Church Slavonic, in fact, from the written evidence we do have are probably closer to each other than one would admit, save for some minor differences, so that OCS would be the main written language throughout the East Slavic world. As a result, the Slavic language that develops in Finland, with heavy substratal influence from East Norse and Uralic varieties, will be distinct enough that it would be separate from Russian (probably sounding archaic and old-fashioned to Russian ears) and a distinct ethnic identity could be maintained. At the same time, there will quite a bit of nativized Church Slavonic vocabulary dating from this period of formation (as was the case in early Russian), and it would be likely Church Slavonic vocabulary would be more prevalent than later Russian vocabulary.
 
Suppose the Russian principalities were more successful than in our timeline and beat the Northern Crusaders to convert the Finns and, at least, most Balts.
First, how many Balts could they convert? Are the Lithuanians the westernmost limit or could they convert the Prussians, too?
Second, how would Finns and, at least, most Balts being Orthodox impact them? Would they be more Russified?
This might be a PoD later than what you want, but what about having the Russian Empire restrict various offices and/or government positions to people of the Orthodox faith, thus motivating a lot of smart and talented Balts and Finns to convert to Russian Orthodoxy?
 
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