Myth-conceptions in (Alternate) History

[AndyC]

Discuss @David Flin 's new article here

 

[Alex Richards]

Oh that's a good introductory outline. mazing how hard hitting you can be in so few words.

 

[AndyC]

One thing that comes to mind, driven by the comment on how servants were actually treated versus the perception of how they were treated is that writing the more accurate case could come across as breaking a cliche of Downton-Abbey-like treatments.

Of course, it could be seen as "Social Justice Warrior"-like behaviour, or social commentary, as David says, but it appeals to me to have realism followed while standing out against the field. There's obviously a point at which the reader will mentally push back, with his or her worldview of the time too much in conflict with what is being described, but that's down to the skill of the author to deal with and a judgement call of just how much reality the readers are likely to be willing to take.

 

[Alex Richards]

One thing that comes to mind, driven by the comment on how servants were actually treated versus the perception of how they were treated is that writing the more accurate case could come across as breaking a cliche of Downton-Abbey-like treatments.

Of course, it could be seen as "Social Justice Warrior"-like behaviour, or social commentary, as David says, but it appeals to me to have realism followed while standing out against the field. There's obviously a point at which the reader will mentally push back, with his or her worldview of the time too much in conflict with what is being described, but that's down to the skill of the author to deal with and a judgement call of just how much reality the readers are likely to be willing to take.

I think the average reader today is prepared to accept that the late 19th Century will have casual racism, casual sexism, casual classism and the like.

It seems a small step from that to have even otherwise 'honourable' characters take an 'only a maid' attitude- and this could be contrasted against a more 'traditional' take on attitude towards the 'Upper Servants' such as the Butler, Housekeeper, Gentleman's valet and so on and so forth.

My gut is that you can make the realities of consequence free rape of maids something that explicitly happens in the universe but if its happening to the main character that needs to be a pretty fundamental point of the plot or its going to feel gratiuitous even if it isn't.

 

[Artaxerxes]

There's a big difference between what actually happened and what sticks in people's minds.

Things like the Vikings horned helmets or the plague doctors beak outfit stick like glue until it's very hard to overturn them and the audience comes to expect them.

 

[Tabac Iberez]

My gut is that you can make the realities of consequence free rape of maids something that explicitly happens in the universe but if its happening to the main character that needs to be a pretty fundamental point of the plot or its going to feel gratiuitous even if it isn't.

This, so much this. Lack of focus and goals in a story is a critical failing, and tacking stuff in like an EA dev doing DLC is how you kill things. Unless something is directly important to your main story and the affects therin, you need to balance including it very carefully- which is probably why in things like Flashman, there's such a cavalier attitude to it- the matter doesn't come up. It doesn't need time dedicated to it, therefore it is left to it's own devices.

 

[Dan1988]

There's a big difference between what actually happened and what sticks in people's minds.

Things like the Vikings horned helmets or the plague doctors beak outfit stick like glue until it's very hard to overturn them and the audience comes to expect them.

Yep - even in a documentary on Eyam and how it more or less escaped the scourge of the Black Death, the beak outfit of the doctors is used in the "reconstructions".

 

[Artaxerxes]

It's also the case to be made that the reason there's a cavalier attitude to it is because the reader is more likely to be seeing things through the eyes of those Upstairs rather than the eyes of those Downstairs. The portrayals one sees and reads are almost invariably written based on the assumption of an Upstairs viewpoint - even Downstairs characters are "Downstairs characters as perceived by Upstairs people"; it's only when you start digging through memoirs (and they're hard to come by from the early period, simply because so few servants had the time or ability to write memoirs) that you start to get a very different picture of the same thing. I'm reasonably sure there's a story waiting to be told of the same event in a Household, written twice; once from an Upstairs viewpoint, once from a Downstairs viewpoint. I'm not a good enough writer to pen the story, however.

I'm throwing money at film studios to make a Rashomon but in Victorian London now. Thanks.

 

[Geordie]

This is very much a problem in historical fiction, alternate and otherwise. (EDIT: and, I must say, a timely and well-written reminder of the tensions involved in writing such things)

Two more examples sprung to mind reading this article: both far more prosaic and inconsequential than the shocking treatment of domestic servants, but I believe they help illustrate the point.

The first is the well-documented thumb scene from Gladiator. It's fairly well known now that the writers realised that Commodus should have used an exposed thumb pointing upwards to indicate death; a fist with no visible thumb for life. The thumb representing the blade, bare and sheathed, respectively. The story goes that they decided that it would be too confusing for the viewers, because "everybody knows" that thumbs up meant life, and thumbs down death.

The other example(s) come from the recent adaptation of Cornwell's Saxon Stories - The Last Kingdom. The historical advisor -Ryan Lavelle - was a lecturer of mine. He said there were several times where his historical understanding, backed by real evidence, had to take a back seat to what "everybody knows". For instance, there's a scene where Alfred grants the main character Uhtred land. A scroll is handed to Uhtred. Ryan pointed out that this was wildly anachronistic. The document would have been a simple sheet. Indeed, Winchester College, about a mile down the hill from Ryan's office at the university, has three. Well, two from the time of Aethelred/Cnut, and a forgery, purporting to be from the reign of Edward the Elder, but actually penned in Aethelred's reign. He offered to take them to see said documents. They declined. People would think that looked silly, he was told. It had to be a scroll to look "historically authentic". If nothing else, it was an interesting insight into the sacrifices a historical advisor has to make. Reality, accepted reality, what looks good on the screen, and budget are four things that may not be in agreement.