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Least favorite alt-history story?

I don't think in theory, there's anything hugely wrong with positing that figures who committed atrocities otl could have not done so thanks to different life experiences/broader political trends. It's just the format he chooses to use made nuance and depth impossible.

It does depend on how you handle it and to what degree you acknowledge what you're doing. There's, for example, the time a character implied to be Hitler turns up in the TL-191 books, in a single scene where he remains an unnamed soldier and glares hatefully at a Jew, but he's just some junior Austrian soldier so it doesn't matter. For a more openly-examined one, there's the Hermann Göring who appears in Worlds of the Imperium by Keith Laumer. That's a cross-timeline adventure book, so the narrator, observing that he's Just Some Guy in this universe, delights Göring at a dinner party with tales of how he was a dashing fighter pilot and ace in the Great War of our world, and keeps all the Luftwaffe and Nazi stuff to himself.
 
On a more on-topic note, two of my least favorite alt-hist settings (both of which happen to be incredibly popular Hearts of Iron IV mods) have got to be Kaiserreich and The New Order: Last Days of Europe. Putting aside my own personal feelings and experiences because that would bring up off-site drama which I don't want to do, both settings come across as lackluster, to be frank.

Kaiserreich, without even talking about the ludicrous Second American Civil War, has far too many parallelisms and wasted potential for me to actually enjoy it anymore, and that's not even talking about what comes across as an increasing bias towards the left-leaning aspects of the setting. Now, that may change as the team develops the mod further, but the pessimist in me isn't that hopeful. To give an example of one particular parallelism that irks me to no end, namely the Italian Republic's Legionary path. Whereas when it was originally released, it had some modicum of uniqueness (Gabriele D'Annunzio being the initial leader before dying and passing the reins to Italo Balbo) compared to the rest of Italy, now it's just Balbo's Not!Fascist Italy without any attempt at creating something of real substance. The ruling party of that path is called the Italian Nationalist Association, but other than the name, the actual regime is essentially a carbon copy of the National Fascist Party from OTL, down to the creation of similarly named organizations and titles. They don't acknowledge the differences between the OTL ANI and the NFP, such as the undercurrent of left-leaning "proletarian" nationalism espoused by the founder of the ANI, Enrico Corradini or the fact that the ANI was far more syncretic than the NFP in the end. It's nothing more than alt!Fascist Italy, and that's just plain boring.

As for wasted potential, there's a couple of things, but here are the most glaring ones that I can think of: Mittelafrika not imploding in the 20s, Warlord China Part 2: Foreign Boogaloo, and the Indochinese/Vietnam War in the 30s. Then there's the increasing sense that it's no longer just your standard alternate history mod/scenario, but a full-fledged business or brand. There's a Patreon account, a collective of creatives working on things, merchandising, a Sealion Press book, and even plans for short films. Which isn't to say that any of those things are bad or deserving of condemnation, because independent writers/artists/creatives do shit like that all the time, but it leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth when a group is making nearly a thousand dollars a month off of donations from their fans (with 25% of the proceeds going to the Kaiserreich modding team, whatever that means) while individuals who want do the same thing have to just barely manage to scrape by on a daily basis in addition to whatever they do in real life to support themselves. Maybe I'm just a pessimistic asshole, but it all just rubs me the wrong way and it feels like Kaiserreich's gone from an interesting scenario done out of genuine passion for the genre to a soulless cashgrab. I don't know, I used to be really into Kaiserreich, but now it just baffles me.

Now, as for The New Order, it's just boring and uninspired. It's an Axis victory scenario that handwaves how it happens in order to explore what the aftermath of that world would be, and then it throws all of that potential away for something that's frankly generic. The Nazis and Imperial Japan win and everything goes to shit. That's it. Sure, things start to collapse by the time the mod starts, but everything else is just so...boring. Axis victory scenarios can range from interesting and plausible to generically dystopian. I'd call it a Dystopia Wank, but it's more accurately a Dystopia Bukkake. Sure, there are subversions and a variety of different outcomes that can happen, and it's all undoubtedly well-written. But Christ, what's the point of spending all that time on well-written stuff when you're going over the same old ground that's been done since PKD wrote The Man in the High Castle, except it's even more depressingly dystopian than previous works? It doesn't come across as groundbreaking, just tiresome and dystopian for the sake of being dystopian, yet people treat it like this revolutionary piece of fiction. I don't get it, and I've actually played the mod on several occasions (mostly in Russia and Africa) only to get bored by how proud it is of itself for being extremely dystopian in nature.

Of course, this isn't to say that people shouldn't play these mods or enjoy these scenarios, because they're absolutely entitled to enjoy what they want. But it's just very disappointing to see people continuously laud scenarios that strike me as incredibly bland when compared to works here and on The Other Place (am I doing it right?), such as the various works by EdT, Napoleon53's What Madness is This?, Major Crimson's Fear Nothing but God (a timeline where England transforms into a democratic republican Commonwealth), The Red's Our Struggle, and Jonathan Edelstein's Malê Rising. I don't know, maybe this was just a long pointless ramble that people will ignore, but it's something that I've ruminated on for some time now.
 
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It doesn't come across as groundbreaking, just tiresome and dystopian for the sake of being dystopian, yet people treat it like this revolutionary piece of fiction. I don't get it, and I've actually played the mod on several occasions (mostly in Russia and Africa) only to get bored by how proud it is of itself for being extremely dystopian in nature.

What I'd say to this is that for many people, this is likely their first big alternate history, or at least one of those. One of the things that's really struck me after I started reading and reviewing books en masse is how a small sample size can skew opinions. It's why I thought there was so much 'true' about World War 3 fiction that is only really so in hindsight in Red Storm Rising itself and a few obscure knockoffs-but those were the ones I happened to read first.

There's that, and there's the understandable but often inaccurate conflation of detail with accuracy, detail with profoundness, and size with depth. I don't blame anyone for thinking like this-in fact, I've thought that way myself before.
 
What I'd say to this is that for many people, this is likely their first big alternate history, or at least one of those. One of the things that's really struck me after I started reading and reviewing books en masse is how a small sample size can skew opinions. It's why I thought there was so much 'true' about World War 3 fiction that is only really so in hindsight in Red Storm Rising itself and a few obscure knockoffs-but those were the ones I happened to read first.

There's that, and there's the understandable but often inaccurate conflation of detail with accuracy, detail with profoundness, and size with depth. I don't blame anyone for thinking like this-in fact, I've thought that way myself before.
Yeah, I get what you mean (Turtledove was my first foray into alternate history, and I still love his work, even if it's incredibly divisive within the online community and tends to lean towards parallelisms), and I certainly don't blame anyone for thinking like that. I've probably done it in the past as well, though my long-term memory is a mixed bag if I'm being honest. Still, it's disheartening to see the amount of people who aren't new to alternate history lauding things like TNO.
 
Yeah, I get what you mean (Turtledove was my first foray into alternate history, and I still love his work, even if it's incredibly divisive within the online community and tends to lean towards parallelisms), and I certainly don't blame anyone for thinking like that. I've probably done it in the past as well, though my long-term memory is a mixed bag if I'm being honest. Still, it's disheartening to see the amount of people who aren't new to alternate history lauding things like TNO.

I think it's incredibly creative and well-made. You can be disappointed in lack of realism, but sometimes a more realistic work is less compelling or interesting art.
 
I think it's incredibly creative and well-made. You can be disappointed in lack of realism, but sometimes a more realistic work is less compelling or interesting art.
It's not that I don't think it's creative and well-made, because it is and the work put into it clearly shows. I used to be really good friends with the original Syonan dev (might still have a chance of reconnecting with her, idk), and just knowing the amount of work she put into developing the concept proves that it's creative and well-made. My main objections to it as a piece of fiction aren't that it's not realistic or isn't compelling, but that it's so self-assured of itself, like it's suddenly breaking new ground in the genre when it's not. No matter how creative it is, at the end of the day it's your bog-standard Axis victory scenario, even if it tries to paint itself as something groundbreaking and revolutionary.

There's also stuff about the lead dev that I could bring up too that colors my opinion, but I don't want to get in trouble for talking about offsite stuff like that. Don't really know what the rules are for talking about someone negatively when they aren't there to respond.
 
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There's also stuff about the lead dev that I could bring up too that colors my opinion, but I don't want to get in trouble for talking about offsite stuff like that. Don't really know what the rules are for talking about someone negatively when they aren't there to respond.

Rule is mostly no bringing outside drama. At least publically, if you're asked by PM, vent all you want.
 
So, I tried to read The Most Cruel and Awful... just now. It's telling that I couldn't even get past the second paragraph before my eyes started to glaze over.

Yeah, it has shit politics and cliche in that like in a lot of 2ACW scenarios is a carbon copy of the first one, when in all honesty it would look like Syria, and not be divided by state lines.
 
So, I tried to read The Most Cruel and Awful... just now. It's telling that I couldn't even get past the second paragraph before my eyes started to glaze over.

The Most Dreadful Thing, as I mockingly call it, is pretty much The Turner Diaries-lite, wherein we are constantly asked to understand the poor racist, gunhumping rednecks as they commit atrocities for they have been oppressed by being told to stop being racist and to stop humping their guns.

And that's before things like the Democrats apparently having access to the Spice (Kamala Harris, elected President in... 2040), every concurrent internet futurist scare going on, but only in a way that hurts the decadent Blue States (if it were written a decade earlier, peak oil would show up), and an international situation constructed off not knowing how the rest of the world works.

Yeah, it has shit politics and cliche in that like in a lot of 2ACW scenarios is a carbon copy of the first one, when in all honesty it would look like Syria, and not be divided by state lines.

It's still an improvement on Greenhorn's first version which was pretty much 'The original Civil War, but in the near future'. But yes, as I've noted elsewhere, where Queen Nixon in... is an internet troll bombarding you with Pepe and NPC memes, then going 'U MAD YT, LIBTARD?', The Most Dreadful Thing is an idiot blathering about IQ scores and crime statistics while using fancy words wrong, and pointing to a bunch of dubious studies that he's misciting on top of that when challenged.
 
Yeah, it has shit politics and cliche in that like in a lot of 2ACW scenarios is a carbon copy of the first one, when in all honesty it would look like Syria, and not be divided by state lines.
That was my big problem with that. If you want to ignore the last 70 years of military development you're clueless.
 
You guys really need to let go on Queen Nixon. There is nothing left to say.

We were talking about a different shit Alt-Right TL. And, as I keep noting, Queen Nixon in... is a valuable demonstration of some failures of Alt-history coupled with deeply unpleasant politics that make it so much worse.
 
For me, I distinguish between work produced by professional authors writing in their professional capacity (such as Stirling's Draka series), where failings in the AH can be rightfully criticised as hard as one likes; and the scribblings of amateur writers produced content provided free of charge, where one wouldn't expect standards to be particularly high.

But Queen Nixon in... and The Most Dreadful Thing are both horrible even by those standards.
 
I really liked the I, Alastair book from the Lethbridge-Stewart line about the infamous evil-eyepatch Brigade Leader from Inferno, but in the same line is another spinoff from that story called The Schizoid Earth. Now, as alternative history, it works fine - there's two different worlds rubbing up against each other, trying to figure out what the other is (and mistaking each other for foreign spies), with drip-fed escalating differences. And on its own, it almost works. But it runs into the problem that it's an alternative history story that's also a prequel to established Doctor Who stories, so:

a) there has to be contrivances to stop Lethbridge-Stewart properly remembering it

b) he's gone back in time as well as across universes so it's not too close to Inferno, which is a bit wonky

c) It can't fully go into "this is a nasty alternative future" because of the need for a)

And then later books reveal it as a springboard for
recurring antagonists, who are time-travelling alternate universe counterparts of Lethbridge-Stewart's dead brother and his son. Which is overegging things and clashes with this being a prequel series, "I want to have Alastair clashing with his brother but he never mentions one so I've got to--".

All the plans and continuity mess up what's otherwise a workable idea, "accidentally in another timeline and he thinks it's some weird Soviet interrogation". Wonky plot overrides all. (I, Alastair just goes "it's the Inferno Earth, right, and the nasty version of the Brig, and he's doing some alt-hist fascist Britain stuff")
 
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