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If Zeng Guofan did seize the throne, could he arrest the decline of China?

varyar

giver of existential dread
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Last fall, I speculated about how Zeng Guofan might turn against the Qing and set himself as the first emperor of a new dynasty. I'm still not sure that's very likely, given what I know about the man (which isn't all that much, I admit), but let's assume it does happen. What are the odds he could prevent China from being totally eclipsed by Japan and the western powers? Is there a needle to be threaded that lets China evolve into a constitutional monarchy like Japan and the UK IOTL or had that ship already sailed by the time the Taiping were defeated?
 
I think a world in which Zeng Guofan is in a position to launch a major rebellion against the Qing is one that is already infinitely more unstable and chaotic than OTL China. Ultimately by the time of the Taiping Rebellion the Qing state was already failing and if the most plausible form of constitutionalism is imposed by military leaders then I can see something like a Chinese Committee of Union and Progress arising rather than anything resembling those states you mention.

Also Zeng was not a constitutional monarchist like later unsuccessful reformers were.
 
I think a world in which Zeng Guofan is in a position to launch a major rebellion against the Qing is one that is already infinitely more unstable and chaotic than OTL China. Ultimately by the time of the Taiping Rebellion the Qing state was already failing and if the most plausible form of constitutionalism is imposed by military leaders then I can see something like a Chinese Committee of Union and Progress arising rather than anything resembling those states you mention.

Also Zeng was not a constitutional monarchist like later unsuccessful reformers were.

Foiled again in my quest to keep China from imploding :/ But you make a good argument.
 
Foiled again in my quest to keep China from imploding :/ But you make a good argument.

In that case, an alternative would be backing a Ming Restoration, though people would see through it and start calling it the Ying dyansty (from the Chinese for "England", 英/yīng, based on OTL HK usage), with all that entails (as well as the potential risk that the Imperial centre would start getting ideas later on).
 
Ultimately by the time of the Taiping Rebellion the Qing state was already failing and if the most plausible form of constitutionalism is imposed by military leaders then I can see something like a Chinese Committee of Union and Progress arising rather than anything resembling those states you mention.

I guess then this is the perfect time to ask: is it possible for one of the Chinese Revolutions of the 1790s or a drastically different Taiping Rebellion to lead to a more stable China?
 
Given how close run the Qing's survival of all the mid-century rebellions was IOTL, chucking in a usurpation and expecting things to go better is a bit dicey.

I guess then this is the perfect time to ask: is it possible for one of the Chinese Revolutions of the 1790s or a drastically different Taiping Rebellion to lead to a more stable China?

Depends on how drastically different we're talking.

Anything that's recognisably Taiping- Christian-ish, arguably Hakka-centric, led by Hong Xiuquan- would struggle to get broad-based support in China IMO, though if they're a more plain version of Christianity you might get the Europeans onside.

Could you replace the Taiping Rebellion with a more orthodox (in a Chinese sense) rebellion that taps into some of the same discontent? A more normal rebellion also wouldn't possess all the Taiping's unique handicaps- an alien ideology, incompetent leader, a policy platform seemingly geared to alienate as many people as possible etc.

Have this rebellion win and then maybe you get a sort of new dynasty dead cat bounce? Or you handwave things and say the first ruler of this new dynasty is extraordinarily talented and capable of balancing China's conservative instincts with some far-sighted acknowledgement of the need to modernise?
 
I guess then this is the perfect time to ask: is it possible for one of the Chinese Revolutions of the 1790s or a drastically different Taiping Rebellion to lead to a more stable China?

The goals of the White Lotus and Taiping rebellions were not to modernize China and keep the state from imploding, they happened because Qing state power failed and allowed bloody opportunists to rise. Replacing the Qing with a new dynasty would not magically restore the Mandate of Heaven or whatever. Getting the Qing to adopt some form of real constitutionalism is possible (though very hard), and toppling the Qing earlier is possible. Both of these are very interesting TL ideas that I haven't seen explored much in AH. But neither is going to get rid of the structural and global issues that any Chinese state in the 19th century would face.
 
though if they're a more plain version of Christianity you might get the Europeans onside.
The goals of the White Lotus and Taiping rebellions were not to modernize China and keep the state from imploding, they happened because Qing state power failed and allowed bloody opportunists to rise. Replacing the Qing with a new dynasty would not magically restore the Mandate of Heaven or whatever. Getting the Qing to adopt some form of real constitutionalism is possible (though very hard), and toppling the Qing earlier is possible. Both of these are very interesting TL ideas that I haven't seen explored much in AH. But neither is going to get rid of the structural and global issues that any Chinese state in the 19th century would face.

Do you think it is possible then for a European-backed Christian revolution to succeed in China? And could such a state remain stable and go on to modernise?
 
Do you think it is possible then for a European-backed Christian revolution to succeed in China? And could such a state remain stable and go on to modernise?

I think viewing the vague concept of modernization as a button you can push to remove a nation's weaknesses and instability makes this conversation sort of circular.
 
I don't think it's about arresting the decline of China, per se. There were huge structural problems that faced the late Qing, and even a superb government would not have been able to stop those processes from working their effects. Moreover, this was also a relative decline. In the time it took for an able government to carry out basic reforms and secure its rule, the European powers (and America, and Japan etc) would have moved further ahead.

Nor do I think that Zeng would only have been able to take power in the event of a worse rebellion. He probably had the capacity to take the throne in the early 1860s, and would probably have secured the support of the other generals (like Li Hongzhang, for example) who would have represented the only serious threat to his army. I really think that Zeng chose not to take power, rather than lacked the opportunity.

A better question is to what extent a new dynasty would have been able to a: slow that relative decline, and b: ensure that when the state hits its relative nadir, its better off than OTL.

I think that one big advantage will simply be the fact that the new dynasty will have the excuse to cut out the dead wood. The Meiji reformers were not actually revolutionaries by temperament (indeed, many of them began as reactionaries.) But because the Shogunate was so thoroughly swept away, the new government could install its leaders and ways of doing things at every level of the administration, rather than being a prisoner of existing structures. There were many able Qing reformers- Prince Gong, Li, Zeng himself and even at times Cixi. But the weight of court politics, of entrenched systems was a serious problem.

It's important to remember that the scale of Qing decline wasn't always apparent at the time- right up until 1895, it was an open question in British policy circles about who would make the better partner, Tokyo or Beijing. I actually think that in many ways it was the First Sino-Japanese War, even more than the Boxer Rebellion that really did the critical damage to the Qing. And that defeat, or rather a defeat on that scale, could be avoided relatively easily.

Assume, just for a moment, that we still see a war with Japan on schedule. It would obviously change quite rapidly, since Korea would probably alter in fascinating ways with the Qing falling in the 1860s, but let's just go with it for now.

Zeng's dynasty, with greater control of administrative appointments is not going to see the same systemic misdirection of funds that so crippled the late Qing military. It's possible, likely even, that they still have the problem of there being multiple fleets without a working chain of command, though I do think Zeng's credentials as a military man and reformer will alleviate this slightly. But the fundamental crisis of supply is unlikely to happen- we can expect the Chinese to enter the war with sufficient ammunition for its ships and a half-decent training regime. Even if the Japanese still sweep the Chinese from the sea, it's likely that they don't enjoy anything like their historic success on land. In fact, it's even possible that a Chinese government dominated by reforming generals with more experience of modern warfare (against Turkestan, against France, against the Taiping) will create an army with cohesive doctrine and good enough logistics to win in Korea.

If they do, defeat at sea will be forgiven- the new dynasty will have demonstrated that it can defend China's interests in its traditional sphere of influence.

All of this glosses over the severe industrial, economic and social problems that will face China. But I would actually point to the current work of @heraclius with his series on the mid-to-late Western Roman Empire. This could be an era in which China, as in our timeline, experiences crisis after crisis, shock after shock. It would still be a time when the oldest of orthodoxies is challenged, in which the Imperial government struggles to stamp its authorities on the provinces, in which foreign powers dominate huge swathes of the economy.

But from our perspective, safely ensconced in the knowledge of Xinhai, the Warlord Era, Chiang, Mao, and Unit 731- it will seem a story of resilience and survival.
 
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I don't think it's about arresting the decline of China, per se. There were huge structural problems that faced the late Qing, and even a superb government would not have been able to stop those processes from working their effects. Moreover, this was also a relative decline. In the time it took for an able government to carry out basic reforms and secure its rule, the European powers (and America, and Japan etc) would have moved further ahead.

Nor do I think that Zeng would only have been able to take power in the event of a worse rebellion. He probably had the capacity to take the throne in the early 1860s, and would probably have secured the support of the other generals (like Li Hongzhang, for example) who would have represented the only serious threat to his army. I really think that Zeng chose not to take power, rather than lacked the opportunity.

A better question is to what extent a new dynasty would have been able to a: slow that relative decline, and b: ensure that when the state hits its relative nadir, its better off than OTL.

I think that one big advantage will simply be the fact that the new dynasty will have the excuse to cut out the dead wood. The Meiji reformers were not actually revolutionaries by temperament (indeed, many of them began as reactionaries.) But because the Shogunate was so thoroughly swept away, the new government could install its leaders and ways of doing things at every level of the administration, rather than being a prisoner of existing structures. There were many able Qing reformers- Prince Gong, Li, Zeng himself and even at times Cixi. But the weight of court politics, of entrenched systems was a serious problem.

It's important to remember that the scale of Qing decline wasn't always apparent at the time- right up until 1895, it was an open question in British policy circles about who would make the better partner, Tokyo or Beijing. I actually think that in many ways it was the First Sino-Japanese War, even more than the Boxer Rebellion that really did the critical damage to the Qing. And that defeat, or rather a defeat on that scale, could be avoided relatively easily.

Assume, just for a moment, that we still see a war with Japan on schedule. It would obviously change quite rapidly, since Korea would probably alter in fascinating ways with the Qing falling in the 1860s, but let's just go with it for now.

Zeng's dynasty, with greater control of administrative appointments is not going to see the same systemic misdirection of funds that so crippled the late Qing military. It's possible, likely even, that they still have the problem of their being multiple fleets without a working chain of command, though I do think Zeng's credentials as a military man and reformer will alleviate this slightly. But the fundamental crisis of supply is unlikely to happen- we can expect the Chinese to enter the war with sufficient ammunition for its ships and a half-decent training regime. Even if the Japanese still sweep the Chinese from the sea, it's likely that they don't enjoy anything like their historic success on land. In fact, it's even possible that a Chinese government dominated by reforming generals with more experience of modern warfare (against Turkestan, against France, against the Taiping) will create an army with cohesive doctrine and good enough logistics to win in Korea.

If they do, defeat at sea will be forgiven- the new dynasty will have demonstrated that it can defend China's interests in its traditional sphere of influence.

All of this glosses over the severe industrial, economic and social problems that will face China. But I would actually point to the current work of @heraclius with his series on the mid-to-late Western Roman Empire. This could be an era in which China, as in our timeline, experiences crisis after crisis, shock after shock. It would still be a time when the oldest of orthodoxies is challenged, in which the Imperial government struggles to stamp its authorities on the provinces, in which foreign powers dominate huge swathes of the economy.

But from our perspective, safely ensconced in the knowledge of Xinhai, the Warlord Era, Chiang, Mao, and Unit 731- it will seem a story of resilience and survival.

Fantastic and thorough post that lays out what I was kind of sort of picturing in the back of my brain when I started this thread. A China that does better is certainly not a China that 'does a Meiji but on a bigger scale' - that's not going to happen. But the former, I think, is certainly possible.

If I knew more about the era, and China in general, I might even try to write a story set in "Zeng Dynasty" China later on in its history, but that's probably only a recipe for creative failure at the moment.
 
Do you think it is possible then for a European-backed Christian revolution to succeed in China? And could such a state remain stable and go on to modernise?

I mean, European support won't immediately solve all of China's socioeconomic issues, and if the new dynasty is strident about its Christianity that won't be popular amongst the populace. The ethnic tensions that led to some of the other mid-century rebellions are also still bubbling about.

There's also the factor that being backed by one European power might strain relations with the others. Whether they're Protestant or Catholic-leaning would be important here.
 
I don't think it's about arresting the decline of China, per se. There were huge structural problems that faced the late Qing, and even a superb government would not have been able to stop those processes from working their effects. Moreover, this was also a relative decline. In the time it took for an able government to carry out basic reforms and secure its rule, the European powers (and America, and Japan etc) would have moved further ahead.

Nor do I think that Zeng would only have been able to take power in the event of a worse rebellion. He probably had the capacity to take the throne in the early 1860s, and would probably have secured the support of the other generals (like Li Hongzhang, for example) who would have represented the only serious threat to his army. I really think that Zeng chose not to take power, rather than lacked the opportunity.

A better question is to what extent a new dynasty would have been able to a: slow that relative decline, and b: ensure that when the state hits its relative nadir, its better off than OTL.

I think that one big advantage will simply be the fact that the new dynasty will have the excuse to cut out the dead wood. The Meiji reformers were not actually revolutionaries by temperament (indeed, many of them began as reactionaries.) But because the Shogunate was so thoroughly swept away, the new government could install its leaders and ways of doing things at every level of the administration, rather than being a prisoner of existing structures. There were many able Qing reformers- Prince Gong, Li, Zeng himself and even at times Cixi. But the weight of court politics, of entrenched systems was a serious problem.

It's important to remember that the scale of Qing decline wasn't always apparent at the time- right up until 1895, it was an open question in British policy circles about who would make the better partner, Tokyo or Beijing. I actually think that in many ways it was the First Sino-Japanese War, even more than the Boxer Rebellion that really did the critical damage to the Qing. And that defeat, or rather a defeat on that scale, could be avoided relatively easily.

Assume, just for a moment, that we still see a war with Japan on schedule. It would obviously change quite rapidly, since Korea would probably alter in fascinating ways with the Qing falling in the 1860s, but let's just go with it for now.

Zeng's dynasty, with greater control of administrative appointments is not going to see the same systemic misdirection of funds that so crippled the late Qing military. It's possible, likely even, that they still have the problem of their being multiple fleets without a working chain of command, though I do think Zeng's credentials as a military man and reformer will alleviate this slightly. But the fundamental crisis of supply is unlikely to happen- we can expect the Chinese to enter the war with sufficient ammunition for its ships and a half-decent training regime. Even if the Japanese still sweep the Chinese from the sea, it's likely that they don't enjoy anything like their historic success on land. In fact, it's even possible that a Chinese government dominated by reforming generals with more experience of modern warfare (against Turkestan, against France, against the Taiping) will create an army with cohesive doctrine and good enough logistics to win in Korea.

If they do, defeat at sea will be forgiven- the new dynasty will have demonstrated that it can defend China's interests in its traditional sphere of influence.

All of this glosses over the severe industrial, economic and social problems that will face China. But I would actually point to the current work of @heraclius with his series on the mid-to-late Western Roman Empire. This could be an era in which China, as in our timeline, experiences crisis after crisis, shock after shock. It would still be a time when the oldest of orthodoxies is challenged, in which the Imperial government struggles to stamp its authorities on the provinces, in which foreign powers dominate huge swathes of the economy.

But from our perspective, safely ensconced in the knowledge of Xinhai, the Warlord Era, Chiang, Mao, and Unit 731- it will seem a story of resilience and survival.
How a Sino-Russian war (which presumably would arise over Korea) would go would really spell the direction of the dynasty. This could be really interesting to explore.
 
Apropos of the horrible Yellow Peril stuff I work on professionally, I have sometimes toyed with the idea of Russia managing to blunder its way into a war where Japan and a modernised China (probably a surviving Qing) are co-belligerents. The Tsar rolls snake eyes again and again, while every Chinese and Japanese dice roll comes up sixes.

That's the implausible stuff to get to what I want to really explore:

Russia manages to lose vast chunks of territory in the Far East to both nations, and the spectacle of a European Great Power being comprehensively smashed by two Asian powers leads to a really, really nasty scenario where progressives in America and Greater Britain think their nightmare of a great Asian race war is about to come true....
 
Apropos of the horrible Yellow Peril stuff I work on professionally, I have sometimes toyed with the idea of Russia managing to blunder its way into a war where Japan and a modernised China (probably a surviving Qing) are co-belligerents. The Tsar rolls snake eyes again and again, while every Chinese and Japanese dice roll comes up sixes.

That's the implausible stuff to get to what I want to really explore:

Russia manages to lose vast chunks of territory in the Far East to both nations, and the spectacle of a European Great Power being comprehensively smashed by two Asian powers leads to a really, really nasty scenario where progressives in America and Greater Britain think their nightmare of a great Asian race war is about to come true....
Would China and Japan work together if they fought to a standstill before over Korea? I'm not sure what Japan could get out of it if China is presumably interested in getting Outer Manchuria. Although I guess China is just worried about holding on to Mongolia and not losing everything.
 
Oh, you'd have to butterfly the Sino-Japanese War, no question!

I was envisaging the Japanese leaping in opportunistically to grab parts of the Far East- Kamchatka, maybe, though God knows why they'd want it!

The actual war would be implausible- the important thing is getting to the point where in politicians in Melbourne and Vancouver and San Francisco panic because not only has Russia lost to an Asian power, those Asian powers are working together!

Pan-Asianism as a specter that haunts the West, you see? There were so many contemporary Westerners who thought that there was going to be a great race war. In this scenario, that might look like it was becoming possible.

Obviously, this would be a rather unpleasant timeline, to say the least.
 
Korea is the sticking point to any potential Sino-Japanese alliance.
I think maybe it could work if Japan loses a war to China but not horrifyingly. So they have clear naval advantage while China has ground advantage. Japan seemed earlier on to be less nuts with its colonial ambitions so maybe they could work out a Britain-France kind of deal where they cooperate with each other, one providing naval cover and the other as the ground boys. Maybe in exchange for Japanese business interests having access to Korean markets? I'm not sure they're absolutely doomed to be enemies at least while they're both developing.
 
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