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Going Over The Top: The Mutiny of the French Army
- Thread starter AndyC
- Start date
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
On the counter attacks rather than trading space, I've heard it argued that most losses during these offensives were actually taken trying to hold ground against such counter attacks for various reasons. The Germans might have come to the conclusion that if they wanted to bleed out the enemy they needed to make the battles as costly as possible and world war one being what it was you can't fight without taking losses.
- Location
- Derbyshire
I wonder if part of the German intelligence issue might be that by this point 'the enemy's morale is low, they will break at any moment' had been repeated so often it wasn't believed.
In France, this battle isn't even known as 2nd Aisne, but rather Le Chemin des Dames, for the quaint country lane crossing the hills they were trying to take and which completely overlooked the French start line.
The insane thing was that until then, Nivelle had been a utterly level-headed general officer. It had been Pétain in command stopping the German breakthrough at Verdun and setting up the 'Sacred Way' which fed untold amounts of matériel into the trenches, but Nivelle had been the one keeping the defence up afterwards and then pushing back the Germans, which he planned to do in the Aisne following a similar plan. He knew short-timed offensives were better (hence the idea of using a creeping artillery barrage), had planned for one... And had in fact, given his promise to the French political command that he wouldn't throw men into the grinder: the offensive was supposed to last 24 hours, 48 at most, with the Somme being reached four days after the start: cavalry corps were factored in to help achieve this! Yet orders to keep attacking went on for weeks.
The battle was fought in part on the plateau of Craonne, and hence this song.
Now that I didn't know. It's always interesting to see the near-legendary level of competence ascribed to German spying before and during both World Wars and to see how far the reality was from that.
The insane thing was that until then, Nivelle had been a utterly level-headed general officer. It had been Pétain in command stopping the German breakthrough at Verdun and setting up the 'Sacred Way' which fed untold amounts of matériel into the trenches, but Nivelle had been the one keeping the defence up afterwards and then pushing back the Germans, which he planned to do in the Aisne following a similar plan. He knew short-timed offensives were better (hence the idea of using a creeping artillery barrage), had planned for one... And had in fact, given his promise to the French political command that he wouldn't throw men into the grinder: the offensive was supposed to last 24 hours, 48 at most, with the Somme being reached four days after the start: cavalry corps were factored in to help achieve this! Yet orders to keep attacking went on for weeks.
The battle was fought in part on the plateau of Craonne, and hence this song.
Now that I didn't know. It's always interesting to see the near-legendary level of competence ascribed to German spying before and during both World Wars and to see how far the reality was from that.
- Location
- In a van, down by the river.
A good article. Because of the 1917 mutinies the French are usually dismissed as being about to collapse. As you show, this wasn't so, if they were they would not have been able to pull off the defence at 2nd Battle of the Marne between 18th July and 5th August 1918.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Good Stuff.
I do agree with the sentiment that the Mutinies were less mutinies and were essentially strikes. Around about a similar time we had the so called "Etaples Mutiny" which was a essentially a strike against the conditions at the Etaples camp which progressively got out of hand due to the incompetence of the MP's present.
That being said an interesting Mutiny was the one of Russian Expeditionary Force in France which ended up with a Firefight and a French Artillery piece being used which is crazy.
I do agree with the sentiment that the Mutinies were less mutinies and were essentially strikes. Around about a similar time we had the so called "Etaples Mutiny" which was a essentially a strike against the conditions at the Etaples camp which progressively got out of hand due to the incompetence of the MP's present.
That being said an interesting Mutiny was the one of Russian Expeditionary Force in France which ended up with a Firefight and a French Artillery piece being used which is crazy.
I was stunned by:
because that theory is correct, what we 'know' about Passchendaele (horrific pointless bloody slog) is wrong, it did have a big impact.
because that theory is correct, what we 'know' about Passchendaele (horrific pointless bloody slog) is wrong, it did have a big impact.
- Location
- In a van, down by the river.
The whole 'Lions led by Donkeys' polemic is losing ground. Not a minute too soon. It's becoming more and more accepted that opposing Wilhelmine German militarism was both worthwhile and necessary.
It had an impact, but honestly that doesn't change the fact it was a shitshow. The commanders were too ambitious, the terrain unfavorable, the rain both unexpected and devastating, and the Germans far more prepared than most would care to admit.
Max Sinister
Well-known member
- Location
- The Chaos Timeline
Quite possible, this happened to the Israelis as well: https://web.archive.org/web/20120815054145/http://www.gladwell.com/2003/2003_03_10_a_dots.html (From Malcolm Gladwell's "What the Dog Saw".)
Different kettle of fish. Even if a war is morally justified, it can be fought in a horribly incompetent way. And that's what the critique is about.
Indeed, that claim comes up a lot in amateur AH, often as a justification for a Central Powers victory in which everything turns out better than OTL.
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
Different things.
And tbh I still think its right that WWI is not seen generally as a morally upstanding conflict given how much of it was wrapped in Imperialism, ethno-nationalism and brinkmanship.
Because German Militarism doesn't really stand out that much when you consider the armies that crushed it didn't appear overnight.
Alexander Rooksmoor
Well-known member
I think another important factor after April 1917 was the knowledge that American troops were coming. This gave many French a sense of something to hold out for. Of course, the USA force, the AEF was poorly equipped and inexperienced, but the sense that they would tip the balance greatly, had a bigger impact than that on the combat certainly before the spring of 1918. Americans tend to view the AEF as war-winning. However, before 1917 the US Army had been tiny and had even struggled against Mexican revolutionaries.
Many AEF units, especially at the start had been National Guard units, but many troops ironically, ended up being given French weaponry and uniforms. The Americans also stood aloof, not wanting to become allies of even the British and French, but simply as an Associate Power with their section of the Western Front. This policy led to very high casualties, a rate about seven times higher than that of nearby French units, because the AEF troops had to learn the nature of fighting on the Western Front from scratch. Black units seconded to the French Army did better because they were quickly inducted into what the 'bonhommes' ('good men', a bit like 'good old boys' which is what the French soldier called themselves 'poilou' was a derogatory term, more like 'Hun' for the Germans than 'Tommy' or 'doughboy' for the British and Americans) had bitterly learned over the previous years.
The Americans were highly beneficial in raising morale both through the expectation of their impact and the amount of war materiel the USA was able to ship over including thousands of horses. This took time to get going. Thus, it was the hope of these things that was the prime contributor to them counteracting the war weariness inspired mutinies. Perhaps the French experience stands out because you would have expected mutinies by this stage in Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria, perhaps even in Germany, as food rations for the Central Powers had already fallen well below the levels still seen in France and Britain. An earlier collapse of Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria is certainly a very feasible alternative.
Many AEF units, especially at the start had been National Guard units, but many troops ironically, ended up being given French weaponry and uniforms. The Americans also stood aloof, not wanting to become allies of even the British and French, but simply as an Associate Power with their section of the Western Front. This policy led to very high casualties, a rate about seven times higher than that of nearby French units, because the AEF troops had to learn the nature of fighting on the Western Front from scratch. Black units seconded to the French Army did better because they were quickly inducted into what the 'bonhommes' ('good men', a bit like 'good old boys' which is what the French soldier called themselves 'poilou' was a derogatory term, more like 'Hun' for the Germans than 'Tommy' or 'doughboy' for the British and Americans) had bitterly learned over the previous years.
The Americans were highly beneficial in raising morale both through the expectation of their impact and the amount of war materiel the USA was able to ship over including thousands of horses. This took time to get going. Thus, it was the hope of these things that was the prime contributor to them counteracting the war weariness inspired mutinies. Perhaps the French experience stands out because you would have expected mutinies by this stage in Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria, perhaps even in Germany, as food rations for the Central Powers had already fallen well below the levels still seen in France and Britain. An earlier collapse of Austria-Hungary and Bulgaria is certainly a very feasible alternative.
Alexander Rooksmoor
Well-known member
I think the 'Lions Led by Donkeys' line is much less about whether going to war against Germany in the first place was a bad thing or not, but rather that it was handled in such a poor way that it added many thousands of casualties that could have been spared. 'British Butchers and Bunglers of World War One' (1988) by John Laffin is still excellent on this, not only showing the pig-headed repetition of methods that had been consistently shown to fail, but also highlighting a good number of different approaches that could have been used instead.