Torten
Well-known member
- Location
- Wessex, UK
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- He/Him
You knock out Peenemünde with a Nuclear missile, and then demand peace. The hard part is when the Nazis say no.
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2019 Britain ISOT to November 1944?
- Thread starter Torten
- Start date
You knock out Peenemünde with a Nuclear missile, and then demand peace. The hard part is when the Nazis say no.
Yeah, that works until you try to roust the Nazis out. I doubt any modern England would accept a treaty with them staying, so if you can't negotiate cleanly that's what excessive force is for.
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
How well can we aim Trident?
They're meant to blow up cities, I've always heard they were deemed pretty worthless for a first strike due to not being much good at hitting hardened or military targets due to being less accurate than cruise missiles, air deployed weapons and ICBMs.
I also doubt we'd use nukes on the wolf's lair when we can blow it to hell with conventional weapons. Same for most of the important targets we'd actually want to take out.
Breaking out the nukes would be useful if we want to terrorize the Germans into surrendering but if they don't we've just potentially killed millions of people we didn't have to when we could win the war in a few months just with better intel, some well placed air strikes and quick breakthrough either in the Netherlands or elsewhere.
What we have isn't worth much in a WWII context (simply not enough in the way of munitions or numbers to sustain a long campaign) but it should be good for one big breakthrough somewhere and by November 1944 the Nazis were one big blow away from losing the war.
There isn't much left of Germany worth nuking by this stage and what there is we could blow apart conventionally.
They're meant to blow up cities, I've always heard they were deemed pretty worthless for a first strike due to not being much good at hitting hardened or military targets due to being less accurate than cruise missiles, air deployed weapons and ICBMs.
I also doubt we'd use nukes on the wolf's lair when we can blow it to hell with conventional weapons. Same for most of the important targets we'd actually want to take out.
Breaking out the nukes would be useful if we want to terrorize the Germans into surrendering but if they don't we've just potentially killed millions of people we didn't have to when we could win the war in a few months just with better intel, some well placed air strikes and quick breakthrough either in the Netherlands or elsewhere.
What we have isn't worth much in a WWII context (simply not enough in the way of munitions or numbers to sustain a long campaign) but it should be good for one big breakthrough somewhere and by November 1944 the Nazis were one big blow away from losing the war.
There isn't much left of Germany worth nuking by this stage and what there is we could blow apart conventionally.
What we have isn't worth much in a WWII context (simply not enough in the way of munitions or numbers to sustain a long campaign) but it should be good for one big breakthrough somewhere and by November 1944 the Nazis were one big blow away from losing the war.
Except it wouldn't be a great big blow, because you'd get that penetration into the German lines, and then your follow-up is nonexistant. The OTL Englishmen can't really be counted on to move up, because the equipment loss is flatly unsustainable. Every bean and bullet is now an American beam and bullet, and switching those supply lines to route from American operational links (especially when there's a good chunk of stockpiled equipment that was built up in England specifically as fast response to frontline shortages that's now gone) is gonna take time that's honestly best spent breaking out the tactical and strategic air to just end the damn thing quicker.
Honestly, I'm curious to see how 2019 Britain handles the responsibility they've inherited at this point in time. There's a lot of growing back up they'd have to do, and I'm curious to see if they could get it done before their knowledge disseminates to everyone else and they're eclipsed.
The Lone Centurion
Active member
- Location
- Deloraine, Tasmania, Australia
2019 UK is aware of events like Amin, Bokassa, Mao etc so that will make for interesting times. Will 2019 UK abandon 1944 Hong Kong?
Artaxerxes
Senshi sautés seashells by the seashore
- Location
- #VALUE!
2019 UK is aware of events like Amin, Bokassa, Mao etc so that will make for interesting times. Will 2019 UK abandon 1944 Hong Kong?
They'll certainly back Chang much more effectively or actually do what they can to get Mao on board rather than telling him to piss off (Mao made repeated overtures to the US and UK and both countries were warned repeatedly the Communists had more backing and support by intelligence networks in China)
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
Except it wouldn't be a great big blow, because you'd get that penetration into the German lines, and then your follow-up is nonexistant. The OTL Englishmen can't really be counted on to move up, because the equipment loss is flatly unsustainable. Every bean and bullet is now an American beam and bullet, and switching those supply lines to route from American operational links (especially when there's a good chunk of stockpiled equipment that was built up in England specifically as fast response to frontline shortages that's now gone) is gonna take time that's honestly best spent breaking out the tactical and strategic air to just end the damn thing quicker.
Honestly, I'm curious to see how 2019 Britain handles the responsibility they've inherited at this point in time. There's a lot of growing back up they'd have to do, and I'm curious to see if they could get it done before their knowledge disseminates to everyone else and they're eclipsed.
There are millions of allied troops already on or approaching the German border. They're running into supply difficulties and are hitting a mix of fortifications, bad terrain and determined enemy resistance. The modern army could get a scratch force over in a few weeks (possibly a month or two) and they combined with air support could punch through wherever they need to.
There is eight months left to the war in Europe, that can be shortened to three or four.
The more interesting question is the utter collapse of the economy, the need to find new imports of food, start producing medicine, deal with the millions of foreigners many of them will want to return taking what goodies they can and a whole bunch of ethical, diplomatic and practical problems. The war would be the easy part.
Death's Companion
General Ugg Apologist.
I was thinking on this whilst I was out with the dog.
TBH the conclusion I came to is that some things would go relatively well (good chance of killing Hitler, his routine is well documented and we know where his boltholes are) but that other things would be a terrible mess.
For a start Europe is on the verge of starvation, it took rationing in Britain and massive American aid to stop this OTL. Here Britain will need help trying not to go hungry, domestic agriculture can just about feed us but prices will skyrocket and rations may be necessary and a lot of modern fertilizers and pesticides don't exist so its quite possible that instead of making up the shortfall through expanded agriculture we actually see falls in production.
Millions of people now have worthless jobs, the markets they provided to don't exist any more. We're a services economy without anyone to service. We're going to need a massive retraining programme.
On this note our population just increased by however many British Servicemen are abroad, we've got a housing shortage already, that's going to be an issue.
Fuel wise, we're going to need shit loads from the US. No one else is remotely set up to handle the demands of a motorized economy in this era.
On that note not only have hundreds of thousands of US, French and Commonwealth airmen, sailors, soldiers and support personelle effectively just died when Britain disappeared. So have the Allied war stocks. That's going to hurt.
Far from a position of rule Britainia we're going to spend the next few years dealing with furious and frightened and ruined states that have things we need to rebuild and survive and will want a lot of what we have. A lot of give and take. And with thousands of modern US personnel in Britain its not going to be a simple matter of fobbing them off with trinkets. They'll have a good picture of what we have to offer and importantly what we need.
TBH an interesting scenario really. Not the usual brief disruption before we rule the world. It will be a gigantic mess and need tact, diplomacy and work just to not see a public health crisis and economic depression unlike any we've ever had. Oh fuck...Theresa May is in charge of this. We're doomed.
TBH the conclusion I came to is that some things would go relatively well (good chance of killing Hitler, his routine is well documented and we know where his boltholes are) but that other things would be a terrible mess.
For a start Europe is on the verge of starvation, it took rationing in Britain and massive American aid to stop this OTL. Here Britain will need help trying not to go hungry, domestic agriculture can just about feed us but prices will skyrocket and rations may be necessary and a lot of modern fertilizers and pesticides don't exist so its quite possible that instead of making up the shortfall through expanded agriculture we actually see falls in production.
Millions of people now have worthless jobs, the markets they provided to don't exist any more. We're a services economy without anyone to service. We're going to need a massive retraining programme.
On this note our population just increased by however many British Servicemen are abroad, we've got a housing shortage already, that's going to be an issue.
Fuel wise, we're going to need shit loads from the US. No one else is remotely set up to handle the demands of a motorized economy in this era.
On that note not only have hundreds of thousands of US, French and Commonwealth airmen, sailors, soldiers and support personelle effectively just died when Britain disappeared. So have the Allied war stocks. That's going to hurt.
Far from a position of rule Britainia we're going to spend the next few years dealing with furious and frightened and ruined states that have things we need to rebuild and survive and will want a lot of what we have. A lot of give and take. And with thousands of modern US personnel in Britain its not going to be a simple matter of fobbing them off with trinkets. They'll have a good picture of what we have to offer and importantly what we need.
TBH an interesting scenario really. Not the usual brief disruption before we rule the world. It will be a gigantic mess and need tact, diplomacy and work just to not see a public health crisis and economic depression unlike any we've ever had. Oh fuck...Theresa May is in charge of this. We're doomed.
The Lone Centurion
Active member
- Location
- Deloraine, Tasmania, Australia
The thousands of 1944 soldiers that will be returning to 2019 UK... There will be a lot of incidents at the local level, perhaps even violent ones. e.g. 1944 men who discover that how they treat women and blacks is much less acceptable in the 2019 word of #antifa and #metoo.
Also these thousands of people will have an electoral impact if they are allowed enroll to vote.
Also these thousands of people will have an electoral impact if they are allowed enroll to vote.
Artaxerxes
Senshi sautés seashells by the seashore
- Location
- #VALUE!
The fight over housing will be interesting.
Yossarian
a man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
- Location
- surrounded by Treasury Brians
- Pronouns
- He/him/his
1944 men who discover that how they treat women and blacks is much less acceptable in the 2019 word of #antifa and #metoo.
Also these thousands of people will have an electoral impact if they are allowed enroll to vote.
These men have literally spent five years fighting fascists, and were the same men who voted Attlee into power. I hardly think they'd be any sort of reactionary bloc.
- Location
- Coventry
These men have literally spent five years fighting fascists, and were the same men who voted Attlee into power. I hardly think they'd be any sort of reactionary bloc.
I agree with your general notion, but fighting fascists does not make one a liberal. Ian Smith served with the RAF and later joined up with the Italian Partisans, and look what he ended up doing.
Yossarian
a man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience
- Location
- surrounded by Treasury Brians
- Pronouns
- He/him/his
Good point, well made - I wasn't trying to say the downtimers would be universally liberal (David Flin has given a much more succinct idea of what to expect in general), but rather responding (somewhat clumsily) to the implication that their having an electoral impact would be universally negative.I agree with your general notion, but fighting fascists does not make one a liberal. Ian Smith served with the RAF and later joined up with the Italian Partisans, and look what he ended up doing.
How well can we aim Trident?
They're meant to blow up cities, I've always heard they were deemed pretty worthless for a first strike due to not being much good at hitting hardened or military targets due to being less accurate than cruise missiles, air deployed weapons and ICBMs.
I also doubt we'd use nukes on the wolf's lair when we can blow it to hell with conventional weapons. Same for most of the important targets we'd actually want to take out.
Breaking out the nukes would be useful if we want to terrorize the Germans into surrendering but if they don't we've just potentially killed millions of people we didn't have to when we could win the war in a few months just with better intel, some well placed air strikes and quick breakthrough either in the Netherlands or elsewhere.
What we have isn't worth much in a WWII context (simply not enough in the way of munitions or numbers to sustain a long campaign) but it should be good for one big breakthrough somewhere and by November 1944 the Nazis were one big blow away from losing the war.
There isn't much left of Germany worth nuking by this stage and what there is we could blow apart conventionally.
Trident D5, unlike earlier SLBMs, isaccurate enough to be a counterforce weapon.
- Location
- Coventry
Trident D5, unlike earlier SLBMs, isaccurate enough to be a counterforce weapon.
Isn't a lot of that accuracy dependent on satellites though?
GPS was considered early in the program to improve accuracy compared to Trident C4, but due concerns about satellite vulnerability, and the lack of firm commitment from any of the three services to pay for GPS, led to the decision to improve the stellar-inertial guidance system.Isn't a lot of that accuracy dependent on satellites though?
- Location
- Coventry
GPS was considered early in the program to improve accuracy compared to Trident C4, but due concerns about satellite vulnerability, and the lack of firm commitment from any of the three services to pay for GPS, led to the decision to improve the stellar-inertial guidance system.
Oh so they use the stars to navigate?
Yes.Oh so they use the stars to navigate?
They first started looking at hard target capability with Poseidon, and began development of a Stellar-inertial Mk 4 Guidance System. They intended to compare the position of a star with its predicted position on a star map, and thereby remove any navigation errors.
- Location
- Coventry
Yes.
They first started looking at hard target capability with Poseidon, and began development of a Stellar-inertial Mk 4 Guidance System. They intended to compare the position of a star with its predicted position on a star map, and thereby remove any navigation errors.
So they use stellar fusion to deliver terrestrial fusion. That's almost poetic.
Arthur_Phuxache
Ask yourself now — can you forgive her?
- Location
- Greater Doncastrian Empire
You knock out Peenemünde with a Nuclear missile, and then demand peace. The hard part is when the Nazis say no.
Peenemunde has already been wrecked
A better idea would be to destroy Mittelwerke-Nordhausen with a 75 kt ground-burst, as thats where most of the missiles are being made.
Modern UK won't tolerate V2s falling out the sky for long.