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South American Fighters Question

SSgtC

Member
In OTL, as a matter of policy, the United States did not sell supersonic fighters to South American nations and actively discouraged offer nations from doing so as well. What POD would be needed to get the United States to change this policy? And what aircraft do you think are likely candidates for such a sale? I was thinking the F11F Tiger or the F-100D Super Sabre. They're both supersonic (M1.1 for the Tiger and M1.4 for the Super Sabre), but neither was ever considered anything more then an interim solution in US service. And they were quickly outclassed by the F8U Crusader and F-104 Starfighter. Opinions?
 
For the exact plane, I'd say the Super Sabre, since it was built in much larger quantities and was successfully exported IOTL.
 
For the exact plane, I'd say the Super Sabre, since it was built in much larger quantities and was successfully exported IOTL.
That's what I was thinking as well, but the Super Sabre was a widow maker (like a lot of early supersonic fighters). But assuming S. American countries are interested, who would be the most likely operators? I'm thinking Argentina and Brazil. Maybe Chile?
 
In OTL, as a matter of policy, the United States did not sell supersonic fighters to South American nations and actively discouraged offer nations from doing so as well. What POD would be needed to get the United States to change this policy?
IIRC France sold Mirage fighters in South America when countries couldn't get aircraft from the US which caused a bit of a kerfuffle in the late 1960s. Depending on what period you're thinking about if the French make a sale of Mirage IIIs in 1960 then the US might decide better to sell South American countries American aircraft to exert more subtle control via training and spares than maintain the policy and see growing French influence.
 
IIRC France sold Mirage fighters in South America when countries couldn't get aircraft from the US which caused a bit of a kerfuffle in the late 1960s. Depending on what period you're thinking about if the French make a sale of Mirage IIIs in 1960 then the US might decide better to sell South American countries American aircraft to exert more subtle control via training and spares than maintain the policy and see growing French influence.
That could work. But if we're replacing the OTL Mirage sales, what is the US selling? The Super Sabre went out of production in 59 and didn't leave ANG service until 79. There might be a handful of of airframes available that the USAF is retiring that don't go to the Guard, but probably not enough overall to equip say Brazil or Argentina. The neither the F-102 or F-106 would be wanted by anyone in South America as they were dedicated interceptors and lacked ground attack capability. The F-105 would be a good option, since it was primarily a ground attack aircraft with a secondary air-to-air role, but it was never exported and went out of production in 64. That leaves the F-104. Which is an ok option, if a bit of a widow maker. But it went out of production in the US in 66 and 69 in the rest of the world. Could Brazil or Argentina get a license to build it? They both have military aircraft industries (Brazil's is more developed). I'm not sure if the timing lines up unless someone gets a license to build it themselves.

Edit: the Crusader could have been an option as well, but it went out of production in 64. And I doubt that the US will sell South America Phantoms. And I doubt anyone in S America could afford them
 
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The Northrop F-5 is the obvious cheap option.
I should have mentioned it in the OP, but I'm looking for a late 50s to mid 60s timeframe. The F-5 is too late for that. Otherwise I agree, it's the obvious choice. It's cheap, supersonic, maneuverable and not much of a threat to the USAF/USN.
 
I should have mentioned it in the OP, but I'm looking for a late 50s to mid 60s timeframe. The F-5 is too late for that. Otherwise I agree, it's the obvious choice. It's cheap, supersonic, maneuverable and not much of a threat to the USAF/USN.
The F-5A was produced from the early 1960s onwards, so whilst it comes towards the end of the period in question, it's still a viable candidate.
 
Good option! Thanks!

At the time the DoD was getting stick from Vought, North American and Grumman about Douglas being a virtual monopoly supplier of USN/USMC jets, so maybe an export market for the F5D Skylancer opens up if the McDonnell merger doesn't go through, or Douglas lose their role as top Fleet planemaker due to politicking.

It looks a bit like a Mirage.
1594462312519.jpg
 
At the time the DoD was getting stick from Vought, North American and Grumman about Douglas being a virtual monopoly supplier of USN/USMC jets, so maybe an export market for the F5D Skylancer opens up if the McDonnell merger doesn't go through, or Douglas lose their role as top Fleet planemaker due to politicking.

It looks a bit like a Mirage.
View attachment 22746
Maybe a dumbed down version. I don't think the US would want South American nations having Sparrow capability. The US has always viewed S America as their playground. And they don't want those militaries too capable. Low supersonic with Sidewinders? On the edge of the possible. But SARH AAMs would be a bridge too far I think.
 
Maybe a dumbed down version. I don't think the US would want South American nations having Sparrow capability. The US has always viewed S America as their playground. And they don't want those militaries too capable. Low supersonic with Sidewinders? On the edge of the possible. But SARH AAMs would be a bridge too far I think.
Slightly worse given that the F5D was supposed to use Sparrow IIs which were active homing.

Sparrow capability has more to do with the radar and avionics used by the the aircraft. If you replace the AN/APQ-64 radar with something less capable, you don't need to worry about accidentally giving anyone BVR capability.
 
Slightly worse given that the F5D was supposed to use Sparrow IIs which were active homing.

Sparrow capability has more to do with the radar and avionics used by the the aircraft. If you replace the AN/APQ-64 radar with something less capable, you don't need to worry about accidentally giving anyone BVR capability.
Assuming Douglas had ever been able to get it to work right. They never were able to conduct a successful test of it
 
If the US won't sell supersonic jets with BVR missiles to South American nations that can afford, someone else will, and did.

I don't think even the Venezuelan F-16s they bought in the 1980s had BVR missiles of any kind.

F.1 Mirages with Super 530s all round!
 
If the US won't sell supersonic jets with BVR missiles to South American nations that can afford, someone else will, and did.

I don't think even the Venezuelan F-16s they bought in the 1980s had BVR missiles of any kind.

F.1 Mirages with Super 530s all round!
IIRC, the sale of French Mirages and Super Entendards caused a pretty significant diplomatic dust up between France and the US. While France has always been willing to sell almost anything to almost anyone, they still tried to avoid major diplomatic incidents while doing so.
 
For the POD that would bring about the policy change...

I'd say the biggest, even more than effective lobbying/policy changes, is an environment where the US will consider supersonic jet fighters to be a legit need for the region. I don't have any formal proof or evidence, but I'm getting the feeling that at least in part that policy was a sort of discouraging the South Americans from just overstocking on shiny, flashy stuff (think of the battleships early in the 20th century) that there isn't much practical need for and which they'd have trouble maintaining/using.

There might be a virtuous cycle if one of the South American air forces then shows it can use the supersonic fighters and then the export spigot gets turned on in force.
 
For the POD that would bring about the policy change...

I'd say the biggest, even more than effective lobbying/policy changes, is an environment where the US will consider supersonic jet fighters to be a legit need for the region. I don't have any formal proof or evidence, but I'm getting the feeling that at least in part that policy was a sort of discouraging the South Americans from just overstocking on shiny, flashy stuff (think of the battleships early in the 20th century) that there isn't much practical need for and which they'd have trouble maintaining/using.

There might be a virtuous cycle if one of the South American air forces then shows it can use the supersonic fighters and then the export spigot gets turned on in force.
I've got an idea that might work for that then that I'm incorporating into a timeline I'm writing. I'll have to do a little more digging to make sure the times line up first.
 
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